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Joined: 3/30/2007
Posts: 515
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Why is upgrading not a child's play? Why is it not like MS Office or something like that? You just download the software run it and Voila! I think, people like me (complete morons, when it comes to DNN and website building or anything which is related to computer language and programming, but still wants to have their own websites) will be very happy and very glad to use DNN. There is no question of the wonderful support we get here on this forum, but many helpers assume that we know the basics or we know what they are talking about. I don't know what IIS is? I don’t know what DNS is? I don’t know where to find DNS. When I first used DNN, I did not know here to find config file. I still do not know how to change customerror to "off", because every time I change it to off, nothing really changes. It still shows the same error!
Ok, so back to basic questions. Why is it not easy to upgrade? Why is not easy to make a parent portal? DNN versions have same problem every time (search the forum), yet why have these problems not fixed or addressed permanently? Why does every new user have to ask same questions that other users have asked on this forum before? It is like a cycle! Wouldn’t it save expert's time if there is such forum where all the basic error questions have been answered in such a fashion that every user and morons, like me, would understand it? Experts can then perhaps use their time to develop more modules and modules that are more advanced. If there is such a place let me know and please ignore my message. Maybe you experts are trying to fix it, but then you release new versions with the same problems!
I do not mean to hurt anyone's ego neither intend to step on anyone's toes. I am just frustrated and want to have my website running. It has been 2 months now and I have accomplished nothing. Please understand I want to build my website, I want to use DNN because I like it, but I do not want it to be a torture and a frustrating everlasting experience. I want to build my website as soon as possible, nothing complicated, be done with it, and be happy about it.
Please make things easy for morons like me who want to have their own websites. Please.
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In my opinion there is always going to be a level of complexity with DotNetNuke to install and there is really no way around it. To successfully setup a web site you are working with multiple technologies. IIS for the actual serving of pages, SQL Server for the database engine and DotNetNuke for the interface. These utilities are all technical in nature and there is a learning curve to using them, I don't see any way around it.
I do know that the default DNN instructions do not cover the IIS setup or the SQL Server setup. That is why I have created tutorials on my site http://www.mitchelsellers.com that explain the process for the ENTIRE installation. It has helped multiple people get up and running. However, I fully understand why DNN doesn't publish this type of tutorial, everyones environment is different, some are doing local installs, some are installing on hosting providers and who knows what other arrangements. They can't even possibly begin to cover the possible scenarios that are involved.
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www.portvista.com
Joined: 2/20/2006
Posts: 438
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I agree DNN should be easier to upgrade, but I'm not really looking for a "one click" solution. It's more of a better procedure for real world, mission critical websites.
Upgrading is not easy even for experts. Let me just point to the example of CataLook, a store front module for DNN. Each DNN upgrade basically breaks the store front, so you need to wait 2 weeks after DNN is released for a new Catalook update. And if there is a bug in DNN, then you have to wait several more weeks for DNN to release a "bug free" version and then several weeks for a Catalook that will run on it. I'm on my 4th MONTH now waiting for a decent upgrade. DNN 4.5.1 has some big bugs in it, so it's not worth even using at this point, yet it's still available for downloading for some reason.
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blog.theaccidentalgeek.com
Joined: 5/18/2003
Posts: 2356
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I absolutely agree we have to do a better job of getting out stable and relatively bug-free versions of DotNetNuke. This has been a challenge for a while and one that we are aware of and are making changes to address. However, as PortVista points out, in many cases it is a third party module that prevents or complicates the upgrade. We have little control over that situation. It has existed almost from the beginning of DNN and I don't really see any solution to the problem. My former employer highlights this issue.
We setup a site in DNN 2.1.2 (yes it has been a couple of years). At the time there was an awesome HTML module called MagicGadget. We used this module extensively throughout the site because it had features that were not available anywhere else. Within a couple of months of the site going live, the vendor of MagicGadget just dissappeared. No source code was available and no 3.x compatible version existed. As a result that site is stuck in 2.1.2. The level of effort to move to a different module would be extensive so is not something that the company would tackle without a good reason. This is just one example of why upgrades are not an easy task when it comes to 3rd party apps.
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www.almacigo.com
Joined: 6/10/2003
Posts: 615
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I disagree that the DNN install should be like the MS-Word installation. I have actually made that analogy before. I also disagree that DNN should provide failure-proof upgrades when dealing with third party modules. Honestly, both of these are just not possible or extremely difficult to accomplish. To setup DNN, you must understand what is going with ASP.Net, IIS, SQL Server, Windows itself, DNS resolution, and even browser settings. If you are not well versed in these technologies, and your DNN installation does not work for you for some reason that was not anticipated, you are going to have a hard time trying to figure out what the problem is because it could be a problem with any of those technology pieces, then you get frustrated and blame DNN. While some installations work fine the first time, there are just too many variables involved and too many possible variations of installations to cover all of them. Now, recent advances in the installation process have created the illusion for non-technical users that this is a user friendly, no-technical-knowledge required way to create a portal or Web site. Don't be fooled, it is not and I doubt it will ever be. DNN, as well as any other database driven portal software, is very complex. You must understand what you are getting into. Even if your installation works fine the first time, those technology pieces are still there and whether on your own server or on a hosting environment, something may (or will) change in the future that will cause problems, and again, if you are not familiar with those technologies, it is not going to be easy for you to diagnose the problem. For example a simple skin change could “break” the site, and then what.
Regarding, issues with third party modules, I doubt that will change in the future. DNN cannot adapt to the large number of third party modules available out there, it is the other way around. It may be actual bugs in DNN, but sometimes they do make changes to the core that will brake some third party modules. This is unavoidable and those are usually documented, it is for that reason that DNN have the Benefactors program. I don't know if the makers of Catalook are part of that program, but if they are, they should have gotten early versions of 4.5.1 for testing and they should have found the problems early on and notify the Core Team and their customers. Again, I don't know if that process took place, but as makers of commercial modules they should be doing it, if they didn’t, then they are failing you as a customer as this situation was avoidable.
And it is always a good practice to test upgrades on a test site before deploying to production. If you upgraded your production site without testing the upgrade first, shame on you, not DNN or the third party module.
Also, if you run into problems with the installation, please post your problems with specific error messages and configuration details early, don’t wait two months. I’ll guarantee that you will have a much better experience with DNN.
I didn’t mean to be hard on you, but there are just certain things that are just part of the nature of the beast.
Carlos
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