I started a thread as the top post of this Forum with some instructions.

Meanwhile the thread developed into a thread about the lack of documentation for DNN 5, that's not what it was supposed to be about so I'm copying all these posts into this thread to keep things separated, please continue the discussion here.

BTW, I'm glad you are all so concerned about DNN.

TFawcett:

Any idea when we expect to see some updated documentation?

John Helfen:

And honestly....anything...in any format, at any stage of development would be helpful.  Even an update to the original post from this thread would help. There is another thread talking about the fact that skin structure and css structure have changed....it seems that the many peolpe on the DNN dev team know this, but no one in the public know what those changes are.

Please, please any updates would be helpful.

Thanks,

John

rick katzenlieber:

So, then, it sounds like you are saying "here's the software, there's no documentation, and we expect you to figure it out for yourself and then add what you've learned to a community written documentation area."  Wow.  Still trying to figure out the logic in that and how that is a good thing...

As far as us many commenters regarding the lack of documentation... If I walked into a store to purchase software and was told that I could get a package for free but it's so complex that no one can figure it out because there's no documentation or instructions how to use the multitude of features, I'd pass and purchase something else that did have instructions and could actually be used without having to spend weeks figuring it all out on my own.  I doubt Microsoft would ever deliver software to a consumer without documentation available with the software or online, though it wouldn't surprise me if they did.  However, I had (key word had) a lot more respect for the DNN team and would expect a higher lever of competence from them than I would from Microsoft.  I'd also expect a group of programmers to think more logically than thinking "we need to deliver this totally revamped software without instructions so we can drive all our clients and devoted followers insane trying to figure it out."  I had to check the calendar to make sure it wasn't April Fool's Day, and I keep checking.  The logic behind the lack of documentation is a seriously flawed piece of code that needs to be reprogrammed from scratch.   I understand the scope of what's being offered freely, and it's just amazing it's free.  And I'm under the impression that a lot of the development team are volunteers giving their time freely to work on this project.  Honestly, I can't thank you guys enough for all your time and effort.  But, in this case, you've lost a lot of the respect and appreciation for all you do.  My high regards are a little bit lower, and I think most everyone who has complained agrees that delivering this menacing revamped version without proper instruction was less than professional.  It makes one ponder what the real motivations were for releasing this too soon.  Is it so that you can get more people to subscribe and purchase priority tech support time?  Because honestly, nothing else makes any sense at all.

TFawcett:

Implementing new features is great but unless they are usable, their value is lost. I'm certainly don't claim to be an expert on the software development process, but I'd be interested to know how the Core Team came to the conclusion that documentation was not important enough to be completed before the release of the product.

Offering to address DNN5 skinning problems on this forum is definitely a nice gesture (for those willing to take the time, vocabulary and knowledge to accurately document every step of the process that led to their issue), but it's hardly a substitute for up-to-date documentation. And while I'm very grateful to all that the Core Team does, there are some areas that need improvement, and this is one that seems to be woefully inadequate and consistently neglected.

I don't post this simply to add to the DNN grievance pile, but to bring attention to the fact that documentation is sorely needed by those of us without the technical know-how to repair broken installations, uninstallable skin packages, etc.

With each release, it becomes even more intimidating. It is getting harder and harder to recommend DotNetNuke as a user-friendly solution for my clients.

peter schotman:

@rick, @tyler:

I agree with both of you that documentation is not in the state that it should be, especially w.r.t. the new widget features. But as a fellow DNN professional (we all - at least party - make a living with DNN), I would kindly ask you to contribute as well as to complain.

I know, it is not mandatory, but it would surely help to get documentation out to the community.

Peter

TFawcett

Peter,

I hope I didn't come off as a purebred bellyacher. That was not my intention. By voicing my concerns, I am simply hoping to make the Core Team aware of issues that they may have overlooked or whose importance they may have underestimated.

Although I have been skinning DotNetNuke for the last five years, my background is strictly in design/UI and much of what makes DNN work remains a mystery to me. So as much as I would love to share my input with the community regarding DNN5 skinning techniques, I'm afraid I don't have much to contribute at the moment. Once more light has been shed on skinning issues this new release, I would be happy to provide any help/clarification I can to my fellow skinners (as I understand as well as anyone how monumentally frustrating DotNetNuke can be for non-developers).

My contribution right now is to voice my concerns on behalf of non-technical users who are left more than a little confused and frustrated by documentation that is included with DNN5 yet does not apply to DNN5.

While I give the creators of DNN full credit for building a wonderful product that many of us have benefitted from, that does not mean that DNN should be immune to criticism/complaints. By better understanding the frustrations of certain user segments that are perhaps underrepresented in the DNN community, the Core Team can better address issues in upcoming releases, resulting in a higher quality product for everyone.

Declan Ward

Peter,

I think you are a little unfair. DotNetNuke is trying to position itself as a professional vendor and much of what is going on there worries me. Imagine if Microsoft or any other vendor produced a product and asked their users  to write the documentation for them, I do not think they would sell many copies.

I too am struggling with DNN5; it does not do "what it says on the tin" because there is no tin!

I have been in this business for many many years now and never have I been involved in a software product that was released to market without any documentation. IMHO the lack of documentation is unacceptable if DNN is to be considere a mature product. This is not a new issue, it has been there from day one. Some consider the number of spin-off sites that have developed around DNN to be a good thing. I see it as a sad enditement of the product that so many sites are required to provide information that should be available from DNN itself. Excellent sites like those from Charles, Joe, Michael Washington and many more exist and are popular because much of the information on these sites is not available from DNN as it should be. One site, that I am aware of, even charges for the help file

Yes DNN need help to produce the documentation but the required knowledge is within the core. If adequate documentation were produced a lot of time would be saved for all including the core. If people know how to use the product less questions will be asked of those whose task is to develop / enhance the product.

And before you ask me to contribute may I say that I did volunteer to assist and was enrolled but each time I ask what I am to do I get an email stating that X is too busy to use me

Perhaps and hopefully 2009 will bring the required changes. Is DNN still a geeks toy?

Below are just some of the docs shipped with DNN 5 the most relevant to this thread is that on Skinning dated August 9, 2006

Enhancing Roles _3.3_.pdf

Version 1.0.0
Last Updated: June 21, 2006
Category: DotNetNuke 3.3/4.1

DotNetNuke Wizard Framework.pdf

Version 1.0.0
Last Updated: June 20, 2006
Category: Wizard

DotNetNuke Portal Template.pdf

Version 1.0.0
Last Updated: June 20, 2006
Category: Templates

DotNetNuke Code Access Security.pdf

Version 1.0.0
Last Updated: June 20, 2006
Category: Security

DotNetNuke Client API.pdf

Version 1.0.0
Last Updated: June 20, 2006
Category: Client API

Abstracting the Membership and Profile Components _3.3_.pdf

Version 1.0.0
Last Updated: June 21, 2006
Category: DotNetNuke 3.3/4.1

Hardening DotNetNuke Installations.pdf

Revision 1.0.0
Last Updated: May 24, 2006
Applies to: DotNetNuke ver. 3.2+

DotNetNuke Skinning.pdf

Version 1.0.0
Last Updated: August 9, 2006
Category: Skinning

Need I continue?

Declan

Timo Breumelhof:

I started this thread with:

tmahmud:

I think you guys are complaining too much about docs. For those who are complaining should know there were many people including me who were complaining why DNN is not releasing 5.0. DNN is free and the core teams works hard so people like us can enjoy and create a professional website. If docs is holding you guys up why not use 4.9. You can switch when 5.0 when it have docs. I am having some difficulty to use DNN 5 but sooner or later was able to figure out what I needed to do.

If you are skinning you can always look at the default skin by DNN and see how they did it. I was able to create containers just by looking at the containers provided by DNN.

Declan Ward:

Timo,

Point taken

Feel free to delete my rant or move it to another thread.

Declan

John Helfen:

I think you should not chime in just to tell others to stop complaining. You said it yourself..."there were many people including me who were complaining why DNN is not releasing 5.0" You had your chance to complain, now we need ours and i wasn't complaining that 5 wasn't being release, because i wanted it to be "done" before it is actually released. Perhaps a little less complaining to get it out and we wouldn't be having this thread.

Even with the complaining I am working to help. I did what Timo mentioned asked I started a new thread on a very specific problem I am having and will continue trying to "figure it out", but imagine the time it would save it you didn't have to struggle through it so much.

Sorry if this is harsh, but jsut because their are some complaints doesn't mean we aren't working to help fix things.

I believe Darren Neese is working on an update to his skinning book to cover version 5 skinning.

Jeff

What I would realy hope to find is the DOTNETNUKE Skinning Guide vs 2.0.0 for DNN 5.x and later. Isn't that what this thread is about?

Or some chapters of the book under development (if there is one under development) that reveal the secret of new skinning procedure

Or a good-hearted soul who spends the time to write down the correct procedure for anyone to read in this forum. We, absolute beginners in DNN, would then have a clue on how to read the remainder of the information on Skinning. Or a link to a blog or an article that explains the process.

Something that fills the gap, mentioned by previous posters to this thread. Something that makes skinning accessible again to the community (even the newcomers).