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New Community Website

Ordinarily, you'd be at the right spot, but we've recently launched a brand new community website... For the community, by the community.

Yay... Take Me to the Community!

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HomeHomeOur CommunityOur CommunityGeneral Discuss...General Discuss...A potential PE customers first impressions of the DNN experience.A potential PE customers first impressions of the DNN experience.
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3/20/2009 4:02 AM
 

 

'm very new to the world of DNN, we identified a need in early Feb to launch a new website packed with community features, we'd previously evaluated a lot of CMSs and rejected DNN for it's VB credentials (we're C#) based and concerns over performance and scalability, but the lure of a community rich in modules brough us back.

The goal was to get a site live by the end of February, but today we're still not live.

We stared by installing 5.0.0, which we thought was the version you should start with (not everyone has time to read every forum post on such short timescale).

5.0.0 just didn't install correctly, even clean, until we messed about with the web.configs etc.  It nearly killed the whole project for us and we were left dumbfounded that so many people were raving about DNN, it was a really appalling.  When we started buying modules to plug in, they would throw numerous errors, and just didn't work.  We held an emergency meeting and launched another round of research before noticing that people were talking about 5 as an unstable build.   We downgraded to 4.9.1 and rebuilt the site again from scratch.

Sure enough, the experience was much better, but we immediately missed some of the new features of 5, and even now we're torn about going live on DNN 4.  When 4.9.2 was launched we applied that without hiccup.

Finding the standard  forums and community modules lacking we purchased a number of additional modules and most installed without hickup, but they caused a lot of problems when interacting with each other.  In fact module interop has been one of the biggest delaying factors, with many modules not playing nice.  Using PageBlaster and URL Master together, for example, was a real pain, but we've finally got it working, and they've proved vital in improving the site performance and SEO, which are appauling on the core.

The lack of workflow, was a huge suprise, we honestly thought DNN contained it, why wouldn't it, it's been around for years and is the whole point of a CMS?! But our desperation to get live forced us to turn a blind eye.

Then PE get's launched, and we were sent into a tailspin, DNN 4, DNN 5, CE, PE, what the hell should we install??? So more reading, more confusion, more forums with arguments, and now our confidence is shattered.  We've already invested $1000s on getting to where we are and we're left looking at DNN Corp wondering what they're playing at.

I'm no stranger to the problems of development teams and projects, and I sympathise greatly with the postings of Joe et al from the core team about the mammoth shake up.  But I'm left feeling that I picked the worst time in the world to get involved, we're in the infinite, 'it's in the next release' stage, which kills the whole appeal of DNN - a stable platform.  Even if we have a successful 5.1 release, supported by a paid PE subscription, what confidence can I have that all the settigns applied to modules such as URL Master and Page Blaster won't kill everything???  The upgrade process on live sites is hardly encouraging either, and is a prospect I dread, we could face genuine downtime, so the only option is to do a test deployment on a duplicate site, see what happens, test thoroughly, and then start again once we've identified all the issues, on the live site, to ensure we don't lose content.  That's another serious chunk of resource eaten up.

What upsets me most though is the interaction with DNN Corps sales, who are selling PE as the messiah that will save me, advertising:

Professional Edition Only:
- Workflow: Advanced content approval, versioning and Control Center for centralized content approval
- Scalability: Caching provider for webfarms
- Security: Granular permissions, vulnerability maintenance
- Analytics: Seamless Google Analytics integration and custom segmentation
- Network: File integrity checking, health monitoring
- Advanced Control Panel: Easier and faster ability to perform common portal admin.

I was nearly sold, until I realised that it's actually for DNN 5.1, which is only promised for May, but the confidence is baffling, because when I read the forums, it seems like the core team is still arguing about what the above generic statements will actualy mean!  Some of it only applies to web farms, which apparently need multi-licenses anyway.  The whole PE offerring feels like someone selling me a bottle of air, I really can't see the tangible benefits, and am deeply concerned about the value of a contract with a divided team of venture capital funded developers. 

I guess I'm trying to say I'd love to give DNN Corp the benefit of the doubt, give them time to address their substantial issues (5x was an embarrasment), but my experience is that an injection of cash does not necessarily correlate with a change in culture, and I'm being asked to gamble on a very unsure future.

I'd hand over $2,000 today if it got my site live, stable and performing, and if it meant that I'd upgrade to the new 5.1 features seamlessly in 2 months without any major impact or investment, or worse, my apologising to my customers for a major cockup.  I can't escape the feeling that I'd be buying something entirely different though.  I'm optimistic that the VC injection is a good thing for the community as a whole, not just PE subscriber, the stabilising of the core modules benefits everyone, and you cannot blame VCs for insisting that the PE subscription add modules and benefits that are unavailable to CE users, people have to have a reason for parting with their cash.  However, I'm not sure if I want to pay for DNN Corp to go through it's growing pains as it faces the very real issues of scaling up for the future as a profession entity.

I really believe launching PE without information in place to clearly state the benefits, migration paths, costings and new functionality was a HUGE mistake that will take some time to recover from.  When a subscription is yearly, but the benefits are not really coming for several months, why would people take on the subscription now, and not wait for 5.1???  Seriously, you pay $2,000 in February for enhanced support, but if you wait until May you'll get enhanced support + a host of new features for $2000.  If you paid in Feb you've been ripped off by $500, assuming DNN 5.1 even meets its deadline, and PE certifies 5.1 soon after *IF YOU READ THERE LITERATURE THEY DON'T COMMIT TO THIS EXPLICITLY*!!!  To quote the email I got from sales, 'PE only certifies 4.9.2 until the core engineers are able to work out 5x'.  Wow, sign me up!  Seriously, DNN Corp is making the most obvious and common mistake of tech firms that don't have a clue, you're screwing your early adopters - the most loyal and reliable revenue generators.  If I was running DNN Corp I'd have started with a $2,000 early adopter programme that lets you sign up, get the support, the upgrades etc., but only turns into a yearly subscription when the first version of 5x PE is launched with the new feature set in place and supported.  That way I raise the capital from early adopters, whilst giving them a reward for willing to gamble on a new venture.  Once stable, you're converting those early adopters into yearly license, and you'll have a much higher renewal rate than the current scheme.

There are far too many unanswered questions, but the most important is this.  If you have a PE subscription and decide not to renew (or worse DNN Corp goes under after making a hash of it's launch!), what happens to your PE site, will it stop working because it's unlicensed?  Will it downgrade gracefully to CE (but what about the additional modules which you have set up)?  There could be a whole lot of PE paying customers with broken sites in a year if this venture doesn't work out, but nobody is giving out reassurances.

Sorry for such a long post, apparntely it's a faux pas on DNN forums, but hey, if they don't want long posts perhaps they should leave us so confused.  If someone can give me the kind of reassurnace that any conscientious C.E.O needs before investing I'd pay my money today.

 
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3/22/2009 8:28 PM
 

Craig

There are a lot of point in your post, but I'd just like to address your concerns about custom module integration, specifically Url Master integration.  It's up to module vendors (ie, me) to make sure their products will work with each subsequent release of DNN.   This is part of being in the DNN module business, and is our collective responsibility (module vendors), not the responsibility of the core team.  I thank you for having confidence in the Url Master product and commit to keeping it compatible with the latest releases of DNN when they happen.

From reading your post, I think you probably don't have any real reason to go to a PE version.  If you've got your site running just fine, then stick with CE until you see clear benefits of going to a PE edition.  PE != DNN 5.0 - the timing is a coincidence more than anything.  PE == 4.9.2 AFAIK - the other features advertised don't exist yet.

The issue of going to 5.0 early probably is a case of bad luck coming into the project when you did.  Most people stay a version of two behind the latest for their production environments, just to see how stable they prove to be.  That you had to find this out with wasted time is unfortunate.

Oh, and with regards to the VB thing : you shouldn't really notice.  There's usually no reason to be messing about with the core source code unless you're trying to debug something.  I write all my modules in C#, and if you're extending the DNN framework (note I say extending, and not modifying) there's no reason why you can't as well.

 
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HomeHomeOur CommunityOur CommunityGeneral Discuss...General Discuss...A potential PE customers first impressions of the DNN experience.A potential PE customers first impressions of the DNN experience.


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