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4/18/2007 12:18 PM
 

Schotman:

What I meant by demanding an answer is not to demand the answer that I want to hear, is that I would like to have a request for a simple status update answered, any answer, not just ignored for long periods of time, as in the case of the Gallery module.  That is really ridiculous and disrespecful.

I can take bad news, but no news whatsoever is really bad.

Carlos

 

 
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4/18/2007 2:15 PM
 

CarlosRafi wrote

What I meant by demanding an answer is not to demand the answer that I want to hear, is that I would like to have a request for a simple status update answered, any answer, not just ignored for long periods of time, as in the case of the Gallery module.  That is really ridiculous and disrespecful.

I can take bad news, but no news whatsoever is really bad.

You missed my point. You somehow expect the "DNN organisation" to act as a professional organisation. In my opinion this assumption is false. DNN corp (and maybe even some core team members) have the ambition to become a professional organisation (e.g. read David Maister for more info on a professional organisation), but at this point in time DNN is not yet there. Therefore, I only use those core modules which are good enough for my clients and buy 3rd party modules for the other cases.

Let me tell you a little story. Recently, I went to the Cebit with another DNN expert. At the Cebit there was a CMS arena and we asked for a demonstration in one of the boots of the larger, commercial CMS systems, I forgot their name. But I did not forget what I saw. Everything slick and complete: versioning, multi level moderation, ml, fast, user friendly, intuitive, consisten, interfaces to other systems, you name it, it was there. Of course for big bucks. The moral of this story is: DNN still has a long, long way to become as complete and integrated as this system. We even got a little depressed ;) because of the long and winding road ahead...

So be patient, have fun and hold on, use what you can and circumvent the shortcommings. I think, things will get better...

Peter


Peter Schotman
Cestus Websites voor DotNetNuke oplossingen in Nederland
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4/19/2007 4:35 AM
 
John Mitchell wrote

Carlos, mcunn, and rgtss.

I just wanted to say that I think you guys are all really bringing some good points to discussions like this.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and opinions in such detail. 



Hi John, I just sent you off an email earlier about your Cache-ware.

I love the "speedy stuff up" things in computing. Probably what I am known best for. While I am not Mike Abrash he has his ways I have mine LOL. He and I conspired many (many) years back on the original Quake game.

Its somewhat remarkable the differences that appear in the "open" coding world. That is to say Perl vs PHP vs ASP vs Java...
Perl (effectively replaced by PHP apparently) has just HEAPS of free stuff, some of its very very good. Then some is very very bad. Some items called "Commercial" are really not worthy (really!)... (not worthy!). LOL. In ASPLand it seems many firms want be paid, thats cool... But some of the prices are just well... How in the world they justify such prices is beyond me. In JavaWorld things seem to be very different again. There is a GOB of really professional free stuff out there but the developers tend to remind me of McTribesman days, "Oh, you develop with Microsofts Visual Studio? Why you poor gullable portion of rotting stomach tripe... you should use Java!". LOL. Its really weird! I've been at some functions where I have told other coder's that I am skilled in Assembly Language as well and have them go, "Whats that?". Makes me want dump my Scotch On The Rocks in their lap and say, "See that... clean it up. Step by Step. Thats Assembler!"

The open-source world has often (often) had many great projects stumble along in varied directions because of the voluntary nature of sizeable projects. Yet others where true focus has taken place have had miracle results, Linux, Apache, PHP,MySqueel :)

I as you are aware come from mainly a commercial development background. I know DNN can have a VERY outstanding future and become a well known buzzword. I believe the step up to Net 2.0 being a significant performance boost as well as possibilities boost for DNN is a GIANT LEAP. It is EVER so important if the core has commercial interests in mind that said LEAP does not result in breaking stride if you will. In other words, the modules which make the Framework do varied work cannot (or should not) be allowed to "trip it up".

If I had the necessary skill set and time presently I'd love to work closer on some of this stuff. I'm still coming up to speed on it and there is always other work pending. Thus, I can relate to the various developers. I am sure they are not sitting around day after day after day munching on Dorito's. In the same regards however as Spock put it, "The good of the many outweigh the good of the few or the one".

If there were a few hundred DNN sites deployed... okie doke. But there are hosting firms itching to see DNN move forward, firms that'd love to buy modules for prospect webmasters who have a "RAD" ability via DNN for websites/applications. There are myriads of indi's who have made a living for themselves via DNN sites. To quote another movie favorite of mine, "The Right Stuff" it's important not to "Screw the pooch". Even if I did have the skill set right now required to be helpful to the DNN crew I know that I do not have the time presently to devote. As such if I *were* working on any core items I'd have to defer the position to someone else for the better of the project. It would simply be the right thing for me to do.

See... In a commercial environment its all quite different as there exists pay vs expectations. But, even with this factor ESPECIALLY in PC Games the environment that is attempted to be maintained is "This thing is bigger than just you or I and them". You are part of the team. The team must make the game, its the priority. It outweighs the wife screaming at me that I need be up in 6 hours.

Again... I do not know what DNN's goals are. If the goals have future commercial interests then its a good time to effect changes. The core team who code the framework know how much "time" it takes to make say a "Forms Module". They can say, "This is how long we think it'd take 1 or 2 of us". We are assigning said task to these volunteers, we know they are volunteers. "Here is the expectation for completion to Beta". If this timeframe is not met etc. then the "backups" move in and they hump on it. Point being, development of the modules which make it do what it does is NEVER stagnant and feature releases as frequent as POSSIBLE. If I add a "do-thingy" to Module "A" then Module "A" goes to "ITS BETA CREW" right away.

I didnt think of this aspect in a prior post to Joe. Some sites use alot of whatever module. Those sites can Beta a module. In other words module issues can route out bugs earlier (hopefully) in a modular beta format so to speak. Bugs in modules get fixed, period. Again, the core framework can be the best thing in the universe but when this module downloaded from this site as a core module blows up.... welp, to the users seeing that it reflects directly on DNN, not the module, on DNN and thats BAD.

I realize that a core framework release 4.5 might result in module "XXX" being damned incompatible. Module "XXX" must then be kludged, "It still works" and if the module need be recoded thats the deal. Welcome to fame.

Point all being if a coder is a core project member then they should have at least some set amount of programming time allocated towards it set down by the inner core. Work must progress. When it does not everyone else is left at a loss on the team and the prospective customers.

I've done contract work with numerous operations and this is exactly how its been done. "Here's your task". You are contracted to complete it by "mm:dd" period. "You are EXPECTED to upload code to us each and every week until completion". Thus they make sure I am working at it and see my progress.

Given some thinking and communications I have no doubts at all that rules, project management, enforcement thereof could result in DNN being COMMERCIALLY marketable in 6 months time. I could without doubt have a mainstream publisher atop it, boxed, shipped and at every CompUSA, Target, Amazon.com etc. by years end. I could have the same publisher adopting module developers work and their stuff also being commercially sold. DNN Inc. would have green flowing in at a rate that would be a very nice surprise. Each month that passes the window for such things shrinks. Most commercially available web building wares have not done well commercially yet some have. Not a single one "for the masses" has hit REAL paydirt. DNN could. Some ease of use issues, documentation by people (not developers LOL) so things get explained in "human terms" and not technical terms.

There's a path to be followed to bring it to commercial fruition if thats the goal. If anyone at DNN cares to commune with me feel free... confidential.
 
New Post
4/19/2007 5:11 AM
 
schotman wrote

 CarlosRafi wrote

What I meant by demanding an answer is not to demand the answer that I want to hear, is that I would like to have a request for a simple status update answered, any answer, not just ignored for long periods of time, as in the case of the Gallery module.  That is really ridiculous and disrespecful.

I can take bad news, but no news whatsoever is really bad.

You missed my point. You somehow expect the "DNN organisation" to act as a professional organisation. In my opinion this assumption is false. DNN corp (and maybe even some core team members) have the ambition to become a professional organisation (e.g. read David Maister for more info on a professional organisation), but at this point in time DNN is not yet there. Therefore, I only use those core modules which are good enough for my clients and buy 3rd party modules for the other cases.

Let me tell you a little story. Recently, I went to the Cebit with another DNN expert. At the Cebit there was a CMS arena and we asked for a demonstration in one of the boots of the larger, commercial CMS systems, I forgot their name. But I did not forget what I saw. Everything slick and complete: versioning, multi level moderation, ml, fast, user friendly, intuitive, consisten, interfaces to other systems, you name it, it was there. Of course for big bucks. The moral of this story is: DNN still has a long, long way to become as complete and integrated as this system. We even got a little depressed ;) because of the long and winding road ahead...

So be patient, have fun and hold on, use what you can and circumvent the shortcommings. I think, things will get better...

Peter




While the line is blurring between CMS's and Portals for obvious reasons of features/functionality there are many mature CMS systems that exist and yes, they are consistent and all areas of the function they work to keep consistent and bug free. Many can cost quite a bit of dough. They however are NOT created with the webmaster in mind, they tend to be enterprise level systems and worse yet are just piss poor at integrations with other forms of software.

CMS is nothing new. I worked on some of Xerox's paperless office stuff and then some. Wonderful stuff. But, when it came to integrations with existing established things such as banking net's, collections net's, insurance company net's on and on what a MESS. DNN has a WONDERFUL open framework designed INTENTIONALLY (I must assume it wasnt by accident shawn :) ) and that framework is truly the STRONG code. Thats the stuff that will or could end up making the $15000 CMS not applicable.

From the outside looking in the problem seems to be the Core engineering team is moving ahead with the Framework goals. As they move ahead they are trying to be careful to make sure that core modules as well as many a 3P module (likely) still functions or might need make some modest changes and still function. Understand where this is, thats a pretty fine line to walk and still try and expand a framework. You dont want loose what has been accomplished yet you need to accomplish more. One cant just do what Microsoft did with VB for example, "Hey guess what, VB 6 <> VB.Net". The results for Microsoft blew apart ENORMOUS amounts of Visual Basic Programmers, many went, well C# here I come, many (many) others jumped ship to Java. One friend of mine (who worked for Kodak at the time) described it to me as like being in a swimming pool full of VB coders. Then there is a flash of light, he cleared his eyes and the pool was empty and a box saying VB.NET was floating next to him. LOL.

If DNN Inc. is attempting to get to a commercial arena then they must (must) force the module developer core to get bugs out, get items moved to Net 2.0. No excuses, real timeframes and thats that. They must gain source rights over all core modules. There is quite a ways to go but as I said in previous message, I'd bet in 6 months I could have a commercial publisher on it and by years end it'd be on store shelves and make no mistake thats where the rainbow lay if the rainbow is the goal.

You do have something here that I can point out. NO MATTER HOW Professional the inner core attempts to make itself it CANNOT happen to COMMERCIAL CALIBUR unless the core module developers follow suit. It's like having a beautiful Ferrari yet the things that make it do what it does, tires, brakes, steering are all working "most of the time", and over here the "Shifter" is a wood stick jammed into the linkage.

The core framework needs some polish but thats not serious. It needs easy installation for the average everbody, pull down a list of host providers from a windows application drop down menu... There's GoDaddy, select it. Put in my user ID/Password and DB Name. Hit Go and it goes. Again, documentation in human terms (I am excellent at this), called writing to the lowest common denominator. Needs a slew of skins users can select bundled with it. Needs the core modules to work as expected. Thats it. Oh, and that page cache thing snapsis.

If its ever going to be commercially distributed with the core modules then the core modules need to get up to date and IN PACE with the core framework. As long as ones ahead of the other, this is fine, this is dated, this has bugs, this module is getting a new release when bugs in the old release never got fixed this is all trouble that need not occur.

It's a "Dear Fredericka, We have a new core release ready. All the other module developers are ready. We are waiting on you".
That can be motivational. As can be, "Dear Fredericka, many users in the forums have encountered this bug that is seemingly not being fixed. This issue needs to be corrected or for the good of the team, project and the thousands of users we may be forced to take a corrective action". Thats all.

Point being, if its going to be bought at Target for $79-$99 (price I'd say, I'm also versed in marketing... not by choice. My wife could sell you your own shoes and I kid you not) then everything best work. Cuz.... if it doesnt its going right back to Target.
 
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4/19/2007 8:30 AM
 

Well, gentlemen.. and Joe, I have found this thread to be quite enlightening.  The time you have put in to voice your thoughts has given me tremendous insight to the perceptions of other DNN users and other developers from different platforms.

Thanks for spending the time to contribute your great ideas. I have learnt quite a bit about other applications, how others perceive this project and some excellent advice.

Thanks for sharing this information and it's great to see such diversity in this tremendous application we appear to have a love     hate   relationship with sometimes.

Nina Meiers
My Site  -  My Blogs  - Goodies - DNNSkins - Nina's Free Skins


Nina Meiers My Little Website
If it's on DNN, I fix, build, deploy, support,skin, host, design, consult, implement, integrate and done since 2003.
Who am I? Just a city chic, having a crack at organic berry farming.. and creating awesome websites.
 
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