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HomeHomeUsing DNN Platf...Using DNN Platf...Skins, Themes, ...Skins, Themes, ...DNN UX Style Guide Initiative – XHTML: How Strict Should We Go?DNN UX Style Guide Initiative – XHTML: How Strict Should We Go?
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5/7/2010 3:28 PM
 
Mark Allan wrote:

When you specify XHTML for "all web documents generated by core components of the DNN application", what implications does this have for third-party skins? If skins have to be XHTML, I'm concerned about what happens as HTML 5 gains more traction (there are already HTML 5 skins about!). If not, then you really have to go with strict XHTML, as it's the only thing that'll validate under all the usual DOCTYPEs and you ideally want to make sure that core components never cause a validation failure.

If it was my choice, I'd bite the bullet and go for HTML 5 now, on the understanding that it would be written to degrade gracefully, but I can understand that it might be a bit overzealous when the standard's not nailed down!

P.S. Nerdy proofreader note - the DOCTYPE declaration above is wrong, you need to update it ;)

First, thanks for pointing out the error in the DOCTYPE... As I was working on this section of the document I waffled back and forth between specifying XHTML and HTML and (as you can probably surmise) I forgot to update the DOCTYPE when I finally settled on XHTML. I've corrected it here and in the original document too.

Now, let me answer this question: When you specify XHTML for "all web documents generated by core components of the DNN application", what implications does this have for third-party skins?

The quick answer is "It doesn't have any implications."

The long answer is that this document is primarily intended to the guidelines for code and design that will be shipped as part of an official DNN package. In other words, going forward, any new or updated controls, modules, etc. that produce output and any skins that are shipped with the Core or Professional package must adhere to the guidelines.  The guidelines will be available for third-parties to consider and DNN Corp (and the Community Experience Team of course) will evangelize it to them under the argument that anyone contributing modules, controls, or skins to the DNN Ecosystem that adhere to these guidelines will render output that is consistent with the existing DNN code base. We can't stop them from deviating from the guidelines, and there will be situations where there is a compelling need to deviate (for example, needing to use the "autocomplete=off" setting for form fields for financial and e-commerce modules).

As for HTML 5 - one major advantage of HTML 5 is that it backwards compatible with XHTML 1.0 Strict and XHTML 1.1. Since any output conforming to those standards will validate in HTML 5, any skin designer who decides to implement a skin with an HTML 5 doctype can be confident that new and updated core modules and controls will render valid output. Eventually, once HTML 5 becomes an actual recommendation, the style guide and the distributed skins will be updated accordingly.

I hope that explains the intent of this document a little better and assuages any fears you had with respect to skins moving forward towards HTML 5. :D

:-j(enni)


Jenni Merrifield
strawberryJAMM Designs
User Experience Design Specialist
"Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that’s creativity."
- C. Mingus

 
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5/7/2010 3:57 PM
 
Brian Dukes wrote:
[snip]
In terms of making exceptions for useful non-standard attributes, I would suggest that your requirements allow those, but that your recommendations include valid ways of accomplishing the same thing.

I like this idea.  Adding an appendix with examples of how to mimic the behaviour associated with non-standard attributes and tags would probably be a very useful resource. Even if specific exceptions are included in the guidelines, providing examples of "standards compliant" methods to achieve the same thing would be a good idea.

:-j(enni)


Jenni Merrifield
strawberryJAMM Designs
User Experience Design Specialist
"Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that’s creativity."
- C. Mingus

 
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5/14/2010 11:04 AM
 
Thank you for bringing up this issue to the community.  I am so far disappointed in the community for not weighing in though.  Tsk, tsk... 

I would say that we should require XHTML transitional, but suggest the strict standard for the very obvious and global concerns that were already brought up.  I mean, not using the target attribute alone would affect 95% or more of the DNN user base.  While Brandon's concern is very valid too, the target attribute is much more prevailent.  I am happy that you pointed out a work around for the target attribute in the scripting.  However, this workaround reveals an accessibility weakness that would then be created. 

Adopting a higher standard in HTML 5 sounds great in theory, but I feel that it only creates more work that is not yet necessary until the web browsers that are actively in use and taking market share are supporting the standard better.

Will Strohl

Upendo Ventures Upendo Ventures
DNN experts since 2003
Official provider of the Hotcakes Commerce Cloud and SLA support
 
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5/14/2010 11:44 AM
 
Thank you for putting an emphasis on this! I had struggled for quite some time w/ DNN trying to get my skins to validate. Thankfully, since some of the later 5.x versions, I have been able to achieve validation. This makes me very happy!

I do believe that we should go as strict as possible without hurting some of the key components as were pointed out earlier. I am not a developer, so I am not sure what those things affect, but they cannot be overlooked just to get a strict standard. In my opinion, the framework should not get in the way of someone trying to put out a quality, compliant product.

As far as HTML 5, I think there should be a road map to be able to implement it as quickly as possible after it becomes a finalized standard.

Now, if some of the module vendors would step up to this!


Ralph Williams, Jr.
UX Designer / Front-End Web Developer
www.RalphWilliams.com
Ralph Williams Consulting
Twitter: twitter.com/ralphwilliams

Professional DNN7: Open Source .NET CMS Platform
 
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5/14/2010 11:48 AM
 
I was the one in the experience team that brought up the "target" attribute issue.
Although I have been trying to push DNN & XHTML for almost 2 years now I don't like the XHTML strict doctype.
The missing target attribute makes it a crippled doctype for me and  a script solution is not a solution in a CMS (editor).

From my experience in XHTML testing DNN and it's modules, I'm convinced XHTML strict will be impossible to reach without breaking changes and a lot of extra work.
I tried to convince module programmers (inside and outside the core), XHTML transitional is important for DNN and still a large percentage doesn't really care.
Getting DNN to full XHTML transitional compliance  is already a lot of work and will be a difficult goal to reach (as some asp.net controls simply spit out non complaint XHTML strict code, they will have to be changed to other controls).

So in my opinion is; XHTML strict sounds nice, but is not  realistic.
 
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HomeHomeUsing DNN Platf...Using DNN Platf...Skins, Themes, ...Skins, Themes, ...DNN UX Style Guide Initiative – XHTML: How Strict Should We Go?DNN UX Style Guide Initiative – XHTML: How Strict Should We Go?


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