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Ordinarily, you'd be at the right spot, but we've recently launched a brand new community website... For the community, by the community.

Yay... Take Me to the Community!

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HomeHomeOur CommunityOur CommunityGeneral Discuss...General Discuss...Very sad, what is happening in here... :(Very sad, what is happening in here... :(
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11/25/2013 12:16 PM
 

@Tony:

I personally know the CEO of Coding Staff.  He moved to the San Francisco area a couple of years ago.  Like with many companies, he decided to take his company a new direction in building SaaS solutions.  In my talks with him, he never mentioned anything related to DNN itself in this decision.

That being said, there are a ton of gaps in the DNN ecosystem where anyone can make a very nice living for themselves or a team.  This even includes areas that already have extensions doing well.  All someone has to do is fill in the gap, or in the cases where extensions exist, do the same thing with a UX designer.  There isn't a single vendor that I can think of who is doing such a great job that an enterprising individual or team couldn't steal market share rather easily.


Will Strohl

Upendo Ventures Upendo Ventures
DNN experts since 2003
Official provider of the Hotcakes Commerce Cloud and SLA support
 
New Post
12/3/2013 9:06 PM
 
Tony Henrich wrote:

So DNNSoftware acquired some commercial modules and there's a concern these modules are not available for the free edition of DNN. Doesn't this open an opportunity for a developer to create a competing module and fill the gap? The market place for the free DNN edition is much larger than  Evoq's which has the acquired full module built in.

Short Answer : Yes.

Bonus Answer : If you build a good module, run a good and honest business and make an entrance into the marketplace with a good effort, you'll often find that the DNN Store is more than happy to give you a push along.

A lot has changed in DNN in the last 12-24 months.  Service based modules with modern features like responsive design and linkages to the Social APIs are in good demand.  There is a distinct gap between the demand and the supply.  Some vendors are responding very well and gaining market share which can be seen by comparing the best-selling list from 12 months ago to the best-selling list now.

 
New Post
12/4/2013 6:00 PM
 

And so the tread keeps going ... So how much does DNNSoftware care about its community ?  
Does it care enough to ensure that - the latest versions of its software are actually install-able by new users ?

Been following and participating in a thread in the getting started section for a while -  http://www.dnnsoftware.com/forums/for... - working with a user trying to get dnn installed on their system - lots of odd issues - most likely with their setup - but regardless that's not the point here.

After going round and round - trying to hear what the user is saying - decided to do what i have not done for many years - look at the installers.

Lets pop over to http://www.dnnsoftware.com/Community/... and look at the options for a new user landing on the site and try and understand whats going on.    Just for fun - would be interested is seeing anyone get the latest version of dnn to install using either the Standard Process or MS Web Matrix process installers.  Turns out that these installers are trying to load an old version of DNN.  I say trying ... but ill get to that in a minute.

Now before you jump up and down and wave flags and go - oh its a release day - that's not fair give things time to propagate.  Just to humor me go and have a look at what version users are being served.

Seems that INSTALLERS all new users are being recommended to use - are the better part of 5 months out of date.  

Not talking about some minor delays in propagation here - it looks more like no one has bothered to update them.  If you can get the install to work - you are getting delivered version 7.1.1 from back in June/July.  Which though ... ironically answers one of the comments in the thread I mentioned earlier regarding why the user kept saying they installed the newest 7.1.1 version of dnn.

How can anyone seriously suggest that this is an acceptable state of play - dnn today release 7.2 - yes it is understood that microsoft can take a little time to process new installs - but if the page I go to - to download the latest version of DNN is not actually serving that up - on the TWO biggest buttons on the page - with words like - Choose the Installation that's right for you - STANDARD PROCESS -  then something is seriously wrong.

Oh and just to add insult to injury - neither the STANDARD PROCESS or the MS WEB MATRIX process actually managed to complete the install on my current test machine if the default settings are select -- I do partly get that the installer is possibly expecting things that are set up differently on my system - BUT that seems maybe not really an acceptable set of defaults - pretty much anyone that is looking at trying DNN for the first time could have previously installed any sorts of other software in the past.

I did manage to get dnn up and running after manually changing all the settings and forcing the creation of a full new website -  which does not try and use the Default Web Site -  which also actually seems like a bad idea if the user happened to have something on the Default Web Site that might conflict.

BUT regardless - back to the point  -   the DNN COMMUNITY DOWNLOAD PAGE - should always be serving the latest  version of DNN to everyone - and if its NOT then DNN should be making it damm obvious that this is NOT the case.

Westa

 

 

 
New Post
12/4/2013 6:25 PM
 
Wes Tatters wrote:

And so the tread keeps going ... So how much does DNNSoftware care about its community ?  
Does it care enough to ensure that - the latest versions of its software are actually install-able by new users ?

.........

BUT regardless - back to the point  -   the DNN COMMUNITY DOWNLOAD PAGE - should always be serving the latest  version of DNN to everyone - and if its NOT then DNN should be making it damm obvious that this is NOT the case.

Westa

 

I call this falling within the newer trends that sites based around sales use - it's Dark Patterns - and here is their example of what constitutes this activity - 

Quoted from darkpatterns.org website -

 

A Dark Pattern is a type of user interface that appears to have been carefully crafted to trick users into doing things, such as buying insurance with their purchase or signing up for recurring bills.

Normally when you think of “bad design”, you think of the creator as being sloppy or lazy but with no ill intent. This type of bad design is known as a “UI anti-pattern” Dark Patterns are different – they are not mistakes, they are carefully crafted with a solid understanding of human psychology, and they do not have the user’s interests in mind.

I couldn't really find a specific category but you get the idea - it's not misdirection, but more or less no direction, giving the user the impression that it's really a paid product or if you give your details it is available for free but really they are putting you into the sales funnel.

It's the 'clever crafting with an understanding of where you want users to go on the website" that makes DNN fall into this category I am afraid to say.  Not open, in the users interest or fast in directing to where the user visiting the site would be expecting to go, such as downloads and forum support and forcing them the use the point based system to ask a question seems to me to be the main reasons in which I think this sits uncomfortably with a few but it should not be a surprise because as I have been taught in my many years of asking that annoying 'but why' question - I was told "Follow the money", and the older I get, the more obvious that thought process becomes.

Or am I simply being cynical.

Nina Meiers


Nina Meiers My Little Website
If it's on DNN, I fix, build, deploy, support,skin, host, design, consult, implement, integrate and done since 2003.
Who am I? Just a city chic, having a crack at organic berry farming.. and creating awesome websites.
 
New Post
12/4/2013 7:11 PM
 

Hey Wes:

I can certainly understand your perspective.  In my day job (at DNN Corp), I deal with on-boarding people new to DNN on a daily basis.  Therefore, I can tell you that DNN Corp and the entire DNN community really do care about new DNN users.  Go to any community event, and this is certainly the case.

The problem with installing DNN is not DNN at all.  As you mentioned, nearly every issue experienced with DNN (regardless of route chosen) has to do with the system it's being installed on.  These issues always relate to how SQL Server, IIS, of Windows itself is configured.  (These very few dependencies are a testament to everyone in the community that has contributed to DNN over the years, as projects that do similar things require so much more in order to function.)  

Those of us who have been around for any length of time first fell in love with DNN due to the ease of installation in comparison to other web applications... Download to a folder, extract files, set permissions, create database (if necessary), add a site in IIS, view the site.  Done.  The rest of the "installation" of DNN is done via code - for you.  However, all of these things require that you have at least a basic understanding of how the web works.  You needed to be technical.  This is the only way DNN "installation" was presented to new users a few years ago...  We changed that.

In the past, you need to know what a database server is and how to install it.  You need to know how to install and configure IIS.  You need to know where to find the .Net framework and how to install it.  You need to know how to apply permissions.  These are all very technical tasks and require installation of other software.  For these reasons, an installer would seem like a great option, but you might imagine how complicated of a tasks it might be to even plan to build a desktop installer that would successfully install DNN under every possible configuration of IIS, SQL Server, and Windows - much less the instances where IIS, SQL Server, or .Net are not presently installed.  

Microsoft builds the ones you mentioned, Web Platform Installer (WPI) and Web Matrix.  They (Microsoft) write every single line of code for all of the dependencies of DNN, and even they couldn't get it right.  This alone should tell you how complicated of a task this is.  That being said, we interface with Microsoft regularly when we find a scenario that doesn't work.  If you've ever used WPI in the past, you might recall that it pretty much never worked.  The unsuccessful installations I still see today relate to one or more of the dependencies already been installed and configured.  WPI has numerous instances where it either can't or won't change your configuration settings, and for good reason.  Who knows what would break if that were to happen...

If anyone ever has an error with WPI installing DNN, copy the WPI error from its log and create a thread in the forums.  We'll forward it on to Microsoft for you to make sure that a fix makes it into a WPI update.  You can find the log in the following path on your computer.  Just make sure that the last app you attempted to install is indeed DNN.

%localappdata%\microsoft\web platform installer\logs\webpi

As far as the latest version of DNN being integrated into WPI and Web Matrix...  We have a long list of tasks that constitute officially releasing a new version of DNN.  So many tasks that there're more than one person involved and it literally takes an entire work day.  One of these tasks is to forward our latest install packages to Microsoft.  Once we do that, the only thing we can do is check on the progress, but you can expect for the update to happen in no less than 5 work days.  I don't have an update for you as to why they haven't updated the latest release is such a long time, but I already have asked for an update internally.

If you want to have a quick way to install DNN, a community member out of Orlando has created a fantastic installation tool, but it does still require that you have the right versions of IIS and SQL Server already installed and pre-configure.  Still requires a technical person to be involved at some point.  (Also, I would only recommend using it in non-production environments.)

Hopefully, I've given you a little insight into some of the challenges, but I really want to let you know that we do indeed care.  We don't only care about any individual edition of DNN, but all editions.  Without DNN Platform, no one would ever discover the Evoq solutions - and without the Evoq solutions, there wouldn't be financing for an engineering and product department to ensure that there are monthly releases, QA, website engineers, and so on.  DNN has never in history been released more consistently and with more stable releases than any other point in history.  

I've been around DNN a very long time now...  I know and love DNN more than most.  I deeply feel and have to balance the decisions of community and commerce on a daily basis.  Every decision myself and others make will always benefit one or the other more, regardless to the decision made.  Someone will always feel like they're favored or not.  This is not easy and I am not making excuses - but we are listening.  We see the forum posts, the blogs, blog comments, the tweets, and more.  We are very sensitive to your concerns.  We appreciate your feedback and we care about your success with DNN and the future success of those that haven't even found DNN yet.  

I said all of that to say this...  

DNN is at its foundation and always will be an open source project.  I really miss the days where we all contributed.  We stood together, side-by-side to do something to make a difference.  When one of us saw something that needed attention, we did it.  If we didn't know how, we found someone else in the community to help us, and we did it together.  If it required access that we didn't have, we asked to help someone that had access.  If we discovered new information, we blogged about it.  If we didn't know something about DNN, we asked.  We shared all of this with each other on the forums, in user groups, and in social media.  That's how all of the community leaders and MVP's have gotten to where they are today.  That's how DNN has grown to what it is.  That's how you ended up here.  

This kind of open source participation has built thousands of lasting relationships and businesses over the years, resulting in our beloved DNN community and ecosystem.   It is this ethic, passion, and level of caring and involvement which sucked me in to DNN in the first place.  Please help me and the rest of the community continue this tradition...

You can be a community leader too...  Participate.


Will Strohl

Upendo Ventures Upendo Ventures
DNN experts since 2003
Official provider of the Hotcakes Commerce Cloud and SLA support
 
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