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11/16/2006 5:32 PM
 
Guys,

For the moment, I'll take your word that "lists" is the worst thing ever. 

To me, that's *worse* then you not supporting them.  Let me explain:  If parts of the core are this rotten, then you are building tools on a structure that is not sound.  (OK, perhaps you two aren't - but others are.)

As a software developer and ex-manager I'm a little surprised.  If a year ago, you guys were definatley not going to support some core infrastructure - because it is that bad, then why do we still have that core infrastructure?  Was there not a re-assesment of that infrastructure?  Who is steering this ship?

Maybe that is a rhetorical question... if you feel like answering, you could do so privately.  I'm having difficulties discussing this kind of thing on a public forum for an open source project.

Finally, if it is as bad as you say, then it takes some balls to make that decision - I can respect your for that.

Regards,





Rob Poretti - Poretti Productions
 
New Post
11/16/2006 7:01 PM
 

Rob,

you might notice that neither Sebastian nor myself are member of the core. Sebastian is team lead of the udt module, I am a normal member of his team. We are working on our module trying to get the best result for our users. As an ex-manager you might be surprised how much time we volunteer in this project.

We discuss a lot about new features. We want to get sure that they make sense, even years later. Each feature needs to be supported over the time as we don't want to break any installation during update.

We are listing to our users. The list feature has been requested even before the current team was founded, as you can see inside Gemini. So we discussed this issue. One of the major downsides of Lists is that they are not under the control of any user on portal level, it can only be maintained by host. 

Now going further: consider we would support Lists. Supporting Lists means encouraging people in using this feature. As we are knowing our users we can imagine the increase in support requests asking how to alter these values or how to localize them. This was never the purpose of Lists, they contain host settings. So Lists are not useful for UDT.

Instead we introduced a realy simple solution, values separated with an semicolon. We know some people who are enhanceing these features on their own, for example they take other UDTs as source for their list. We love and encourage in people doing that.

So we leave Lists as they are, we are not interested at all in working on it as we are not interested in these host settings. Note that we don't say Lists are rotten or the worst thing ever. Lists are an old core feature that had seen better days. I am not aware of any new development that is build on top of Lists. You will even not find any documentation proposing that.

Sometimes we have got really serious core related issues. We need enhancements inside the DNN Core, sometimes bug fixes etc. So UDT was the first dnn module that added their own custom permissions to the permissions grid inside settings. It took 3-4 months to get these fixes into the core, and things like this are the reason why a lot of the newer UDT releases don't run on older dnn installations.

So improving modules will also effect the core itself. We are working hard together with the core team on getting better and better.

Core team itself, and especialy the board of directors and the trustees are running a different job. They are working on the improvement of the whole framework. Often it is just bug fixing, but most time they work hard in lifting the platform on a higher level.

 
New Post
11/16/2006 11:41 PM
 
Thank-you for taking the time to explain things.  I have a better appreciation of the Lists limitations.

I have to admit, my biggest concern is the core (even without the Lists issues), so I guess I just didn't want to "hear" about another core problem.  I'm getting tired of rebuilding entire web-sites at every DNN core update.  In some cases, I just leave sites on the original version of the software - the cost involved makes it impractical.  The same might happen when modules are not updated.  (ex: Bonosoft multi-tab)  Modules that are incompatable with updates also means that you have to re-build content.

One of the ideas behind modern programming is graceful depracation of software.  I'm sure I would hear counter arguements, but this does not seem a high priority with DNN  - in practice or philosophy.

I'll certainly take a look at the new version of UDT when it arrives...

Cheers!



Rob Poretti - Poretti Productions
 
New Post
11/17/2006 1:49 AM
 
Thanks for not using Lists
 
New Post
11/17/2006 2:21 AM
 

Rob,

I am just wondering about your attitude and your knowledge regarding DNN.

Do you really think of DNN core being so bad? So why are you building your business on top of it? 

  • Do you know about the Benefector Program?  
  • You are using modules that doesn't have any support and brake on updates? And you give them a second chance?
  • Do you know that DNN offers a Review Program for modules and skins? Or the Marketplace?
  • I know that even some core modules are not state of the art, but do you know that every new module release candidate must master a Release Tracking Process where a lot of people are involved? 
 
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