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HomeHomeOur CommunityOur CommunityGeneral Discuss...General Discuss...4.5.44.5.4
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7/18/2007 3:48 PM
 

"That changed because of the RC2 and then changed again because of RC3. "

I didn't see DotNetnuke.com was at RC3 ..   but I now do...  when did that happen?

What about a status that simply includes RC1 - 06/24/2007   RC2  07/10/2007 (fixed 5 issues found in RC1)  RC3 07/14/2007 (fixed 1 issue found in RC2)   or even that an RC3 was going to be required.

I guess my We part is very very simple suggestions.... that only take a minute of time.   I'm not sure it seems like I am asking for so much..  and not just me...   your blog has requests, forum has requests, etc.

 

 
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7/18/2007 6:12 PM
 
Re: 4.5.4  Modified By Greg Brown  on 7/18/2007 6:31:58 PM

Hold On!  I've got the solution to this problem!

I know of this really GREAT program called DOTNETNUKE. It has all kinds of modules designed specifically to communicate with as many users as you want and the best part is you don't have to know anything about programing to use it. If you can use a mouse and type you can post updates to your users as often as you want!!  It would be a great tool to take your really large user base and make them feel like they were part of the community/project. Instead of the core team vs. user base seperation feeling that users can SOMETIMES get. This DNN program even has a blog module so you could invite some of your power users to blog which would be a huge plus to the project to have knowledgeable users/developers adding to the knowledge base (and they would do it for free even!) and all the blogs would be centralized in one place which would pull people to that one site more often. And last but not least this DNN program even has a fourms tool where people can talk about your product. You could even have forums specific to helping people find a hosting company to use your project or one to talk about third party modules!!!!  This forums tool has a moderate feature but being that the project isn't critical for national security I would probably turn that off because if it is on the forum folder will show a new post but when you go inside to look at it it won't be there because it hasn't been approved yet. Plus new unapproved users probably won't understand about the moderation and will get tired of waiting or think that the delay is due to a problem with the project.

Ok, I didn't mean any disrespect I just thought I'd have some fun with it. I appreciate the core team and I agree with Ed - I really don't want someone who has the knowledge, ability, and motivation to improve the functionality and value of the project wasting their time posting updates. Since this is a volunteer project why not ask for a volunteer who enjoys communicating and is good at it to handle this for the project??

Greg

PS  Oh, and my first vote for such a communications volunteer would be Brian - that way we could all bitch at him!!!! 

 
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7/18/2007 6:22 PM
 

great idea ...

1.  send me the updates and I will blog them...  (although sending me the updates takes as much time as simply blogging them)

2.  let a benefactor do this since I think they have access to the information (somewhat anyhow)

3.  create a core team PR person..   that only handles communications regarding releases

4.  Open the core product Release Tracker so everybody can see what is going on, including new issues, fixed issues, etc.

 

 
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7/18/2007 7:21 PM
 

The problem is not that we don't know how to post to the forums or the blogs or any one of several channels for communication.  The problem is one of processes.  Our current release processes are not optimal for the core code.  We have spent months fine tuning our release process for modules and we have not had this same level of scrutiny on the processes we use for the core releases.  That is changing.  We recently started working on the processes we use for core releases, but know that we will not have all the needed changes in place overnight.

Some of the changes we are implementing include a more formal release process that details everything that has to happen for a release to occur and which will aid us in tracking where we are in the process.  A large part of this process includes our project testing procedures.  Right now testing is handled by the core team members and Benefactors.  As we get more of our baseline processes in place, we will start looking at broadening the size of testing group.  How we do that and who will be included still remains to be determined.

Until the release processes are in place and the tools are in place to manage those processes then we will not solve the communication issues.  It is not as simple as saying post this information "here".  You have to identify the information to be posted and then find out who has the information.  It does not always reside in a single location.  What is the status of DNN today?  If you asked that question of every member of the DNN core team you would likely get a completely different answer.  Shaun might have one view of the status, Charles would have a different view and  Sebastian would have yet another view.  This is why answering a question like when will DNN be released is not currently possible.  Nobody has the entire picture to be able to adequately answer the question.  We have not had a method in place to bring all of the various pieces of data together to give us a snapshot of where DNN stands in terms of our current status.  What bugs have been found in testing?  Have we had enough testing?  Are these existing bugs or are they regression issues?  Do we need to go back and fix code for a feature/enhancement/bugfix that introduced new problems or that didn't properly correct the previous issues?  Even once coding is done, we need to determine if the code has been dogfooded and if the new release package has been built.  Have our marketing items (press releases, blog posts, newsletter) been created?  There is no person on the team, not even Shaun, who has the answer to all these questions at any given point in time.  So.  No.  It is not as simple as take 30 seconds to post the status.  It takes a bit of effort just to get to the point where we could make a 10 second post.

One of my many tasks is to straighten out these processes and get the tools in place so that we have a unified view of the project that would allow us to consolidate all of the information in a single place, thus making status determinations possible. 

How did we get here?  One feature at a time.  As the DNN project has grown in size and complexity, everything about the project has also grown.  Our infrastructure has grown, the size of our active team has grown, our release processes have gotten more complex, and our relationship with various stakeholder groups in the community have become more challenging to manage.  As this has occured, the informal processes which worked for the first couple of years in the project just became unmanageable.  Just the shear volume of communication that goes on both within the team and within the broader community has become staggering.  None of the problems we currently face are insurrmountable, however, they will not go away overnight.

So.  What this means is that in the short term our communications with respect to status will see some improvements.  But these improvements will be incremental in nature.  The cumulative effect over the long term (6+ months) will be fairly substantial.  Even as you have seen improvements in the communications from the projects over the past year, you will see similar improvements in the core project over the next year.

@Colin, To specifically address your issue - We do try to look at things from the customer's point of view.  However that does not mean that certain customers always deserve that same level of consideration.  There is a reason that AT&T just terminated the contracts for a more than 1200 customers in the US who were constantly complaining.  So while I am more than happy to have an open discussion with many in the community, there are some whose constant complaints are a distraction rather than providing anything meaningful to the community.


Joe Brinkman
DNN Corp.
 
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7/18/2007 10:31 PM
 

Thanks for the long post Joe!

I would copy that (sans the last paragraph) into a blog post so everyone who is not following this thread can read it.  Believe it or not I had thought that there could be some difficulty in finding out the information to post - I'm sure that's not easy. And it sounds like there will be a release tracker for the framework soon. I do like the project release tracker and am glad it is available.

But I still like the idea of a PR/release communications/DNN news secretary type person. I think this issue is about more than just the plain facts. I think it is somewhat about users feeling what we call in sales - warm and fuzzy. Take for instance the White House - they have a press secretary. Most of the time the press secretary doesn't know jack crap but he is there to give the answers that he can and let the people know that there is someone coming to work everyday, He is there to find out what the most pressing questions are and then go find the answers or at least some information that he can report back with the next day. He is there to do this so that the administration who have important things to do don't have to remember to keep the people updated.

I think a person who has no responsibilities other than communicating with the end users would probably solve this issue and many others like it. Like you said above DNN is growing.

Just my opinion.

Greg

 
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