DNN is an extremely powerful framework. Its complex in some areas, easy in others. I struggled with it for a while.

For a project with so many installed sites there really should be some knowledgebase. At the same time finding specific informations often result in Google/Forum searches and weeding through until information is found, often the case with open source and sometimes commercial software as well.

Important information to prospect webmasters such as memory usage, system load etc. seem to be completely absent. In the DNN world as far as 3P's developers go most seem want to sell modules which is very unlike the PHP world or perhaps its just the fact that there are more developers on varied PHP projects. Dunno.

Over the last few days I have been playing with LifeRay and Jakarta Jetspeed both Java based portal software. They are both quite impressive as well and from what I can tell and considerably faster. Liferay bundles 60+ portlets with it.

Most of the frustration I have had with DNN are based in the modules, our forums module does this to users quite a bit: Unable to cast object of type 'ASP.admin_skins_modulemessage_ascx' to type 'System.Web.UI.HtmlControls.HtmlGenericControl'.

Seems to be a DNN or Forum Cache issue as when I clear cache on the host account it works again. There are many instances of varied bugs I'd read in the forums about the forums. Some responses say, "We dont have time to work on these as we are working on a new forums release". This simply put is part of the problem. I come from a commercial development environment(s) and bugs are "fixed" before ANY work goes forth on new features or new releases. This is basic software engineering 101. When bugs crop up they should be addressed timely and fixed. I have never saw the forums at the DNN site come apart, but, on the site we created its fairly common. This has encouraged me to now look at making a "bridge" between DNN and PHPBB, when done, I really dont see why anyone would use anything else.

I've said it before, when a new framework release occurs all core modules should work with it. If those charged with working on modules dont seem to have the time or whatall then remove those as core modules. Perhaps someone else would jump in. Core module code should also be "The Property of DNN" (if it isnt). I do not know how many in the core actually work in the "Commercial" software development for public consumption world. The goals of DNN are to spread, be used, attract more users towards using it etc. be that just to stay alive or for future commercial interests. The "stakes" core module developers perhaps do not realize. See... It doesnt matter whether the framework itself is stable and solid as a rock when someone uses the Blogs that appear dated as compared to todays other open source standard blogs. It doesnt matter when the forums result in users screaming at webmasters or clients screaming at the site dev's. It reflects directly on DNN irregardless of how solid the base framework is. As I said... I have done some experimenting in bridging DNN to PHPBB not because I want to but because some sites we are working on need stable forums that always work, period. I'll release the "bridge" for free.

I'm not whining, I'm not ranting... I realize that its all volunteers. But in the same breath they are either serious and thus put forward the effort that is warranted or not. If they simply do not have the time to put into it then whatever the module should be removed as part of the core modules and work towards core modules that are stable with each release. With bugs that are promptly addressed and fixed within the modules. The framework does nothing without the modules, again, it can be the greatest thing going but thats moot. Its like getting a fantastic car and finding out that the third party electrical system is marginal, the radio/cd works sometimes and destroys CD's other times, the brakes work most of the time and when they dont you crash.

All complex software has bugs, whats important is when they crop up they are fixed fast, not in "the next release" or "We are working on a new release with new features". Patches/fixes should come fast. When they dont... I guarantee DNN looses users especially in the imperative modules such as forums etc. In a commercial environment its simply a given at least those I have been involved in. Again, this is one reason I said "All DNN Core Modules" should be the property of DNN. So if this module has bugs, nothing being done about them then someone can come in and take over that work.

I am still coming up to speed on ASP.NET and recently updated my skill set on VB 2005 (thinking all the time I ought be C#'n :)... BTW, what are your thoughts on that? I know C++.

I've been digging at the source of the core framework and like I've said before... Its good code. When it comes to this Portal and/or CMS stuff my experience has been in Mambo, Joomla, Ektron CMS etc etc. Generally speaking in recent years I've worked with the "PC Entertainment Commercial 'AAA' arena" and the financial collections networks... contract work on that stuff.

Recently we were requested to set up a site that we could have done in Joomla for example. Unfortunately the entity we did it for is not very computer savvy and Joomla is a beastie to teach to someone more or less some-one(s) LOL :)

I'd messed with DNN sometime back and found for another site we worked on that it simply would never handle the user load. Version 2.xx as I recall. With this opportunity it seemed as DNN was a perfect fit. For the most part it's worked quite well, we are still not certain of how much load it can handle. Most modules have worked fine, we bought a few that are just garbage, live n learn. The only core module thats been a problem has been the forums, many others in these threads have shared varied issues. In many cases in "hunting" for fixes its been end developers who fixed bugs and shared the fixes... Nice thing about Open Source.

We have however noted through such readings that we simply cannot rely on those forums to work and they are critical to many sites, not just our work. As such I started work on a bridge to PHPBB. Once its done I'll see what I can do or talk with the developers to help integrate it farther into the framework.

I completely agree with you that DNN is an excellent framework and I DO understand the volunteer level stuff that are the modules. I agree that there is a seperation between dev's and your average webmaster. However, the average webmaster is the most prolific client. Microsoft realizes this in all areas of software. It is why they are (or one reason shall I say) moving towards user enabled engineering. I'd asked before in another thread (on the DNN 4.5 release as I recall) who is the DNN target customer and what are the long term goals. If the goals have no future financial interest and DNN is a experimental framework sandbox then how's to get from here to there dont matter. If however the goal is to get both user and commercial level installations with interests then thats a different game. That would mean that a commercial calibur focus must be maintained across the core modules as well by the DNN inner core. As a ASP/ASP.NET dev house using DNN you are aware of this I am sure. When your client comes to you and says, "When I do this I get this long message saying, Exception...this/that" you are on it. You cant say, "Well maybe in the next module release it'll be fixed" as your client will not be pleased.

IMHO given my commercial experience DNN cant and will not reach what could be HIGHLY profitable future prospects without the synchronization of core modules with core framework release. Again, I do not know if they have commercial interests. There is no reason however that Shaun etc. cannot or even are not (?) millionaires over and over if that is a concern except for the fact that the "Full package" needs to be just that. Bugs need be squashed and patches to squash them released as bugs are fixed. Core modules should IMHO be held to a standard on killin' bugs. If a bug is reported it is expected to be addressed and dealt with in a timely fashion as again, it reflects on DNN.

If ISV's who yield limited core modules to the project dont address the bugs its simply bad for DNN. Its why I said that all core modules should be DNN property. If I develop "DNN Streaming MP3" and contribute to the core but also have a release that does more the code I contributed to the core should be DNN property. If for whatever reason, I dont have time to work on it, I no longer do any DNN development, I sell my company on and on DotNetNuke is ensured that the code they have can be worked on, expanded by someone else and still be part of the project.

I realize that DNN apparently only in recent times has worked to bring together things such as release processes and attempt to refine things and thats great! I would however attempt to impress upon them that the framework itself to "prove itself" to prospect clients is only as good as the core modules as this is what the end client see's/uses and the visitors/users of the given portal(s).

These sorts of personnel issues are always difficult especially in volunteer projects be they software or say even volunteer landscaping... Just about anything. Look at the spoof that caused the Joomla guys to break away from Mambo, the "interests".

Perhaps the core could query some folks at Microsoft about it. See, programmers think logic. Whether its marketing or people we tend to think/look at things logical. I did this for a LONG LONG time. Then I met my lady who is simply brilliant at marketing, politics, people, personnel management and those thought processes. I've learned a TON but not all of it.

Marketing is more complex than software engineering.

Personnel is more complex than software engineering.

People are more complex than software engineering.

I refused to believe any of it for a long long time but its true.

The reason its true is in engineering we are dealing with finites. Work in work out, processes, strategies etc. all can be built into a logical format and heirarchy. Unfortunately marketing, personnel, people are full of random and constant variables and just COUNTLESS exceptions! LOL.

I cannot BEGIN to tell you how many commercial firms I have done work for over my nearly 30+ years of coding that never saw success or the true broad reach of their work done because of missing those three facets in the work done.

Loose control in engineering can yield brilliance and wide acceptance of a prospect product while it "gets a roll on" and people use it. Strict control and expectations are what takes what was loose control and brings it to fruition. This is in fact how most "AAA" bestseller games (be they console, online or PC) make the BIG bucks. They start as storyboards and designs take shape. Loose engineering, graphics and more start bringing it alive. As time progresses that loose control tightens up and I do mean significantly to a very strict control as this is the only way to make it come to fruition. You can often see in many titles where "it just never quire happened that way" as bugs/logic went unaddressed, storyline's go awry making the end user go, "Ummm... huh?" on and on.

From what I can see as DNN transitioned into .NET 2.0 making it a more efficient framework, the fact this technology will continue to advance (portal based web's/intranets) and that people/businesses are looking for tools that THEY can work with and create with WITHOUT having to be a software engineer that maybe its time to go strict.

Again, real hard to do when things are on a volunteer basis but it comes down to a commitment. Are DNN prospects/users adversely affected by issues within modules that are not promptly addressed? What are DNN's objectives for this big world we live in? How reliant is DNN on core projects and what is that level of importance to DNN's future. in other words, if DNN management decides "We are taking this road as the future path of DNN" all of a sudden are they left without blogs, chat, forums whatall. Clearly an unacceptable prospect.

I'm certainly no eggspurt on project management and all facets thereof. However, Microsoft has folks that are. Since DNN has close ties to the corporation it might be something to speak with them about. "How do we as the DNN core get from here to there" (wherever there may be). How do we structure this project's facets from releases to synchronization of modules to releases and deal with ownership aspects of core codes and the expectations of the volunteers associated... on and on...

Its complex stuff.

Again, its not a rant or whining...

I really think DNN has a shot at the "bigtime" be that commercial/public or both. To be "The tool" for business, privateers, entrepeneurs or the average Joe/sephine to set up highly interactive sites/resources/applications that are SUCCESSFUL. To be a globally known term, like "Windows". I'd love nothing better than to see Shaun and Bill and those who have staked so much into DNN to see the vision they have had come to the full fruition of those visions.

I for one am very appreciative of all of them as well as the core module developers. I offer a view from the outside looking in, reading the forums working with the application and my experiences in the world of computing, people, marketing etc.

I am not attempting to be critical of anything nor do I have any clue what the long term vision/goals are for DNN. What I do know is that DNN has just enormous potential and that this potential appears to be unrealized in the project modules arena when it comes to "It all works together period" from release to release and thats very important. To the end users as can be witnessed in posts its what they care about.