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3/1/2009 12:37 AM
 

Sebastian Leupold wrote

 Will Strohl wrote

One of the efforts to get funding has been through the sale of DNN documentation:

However, all of that information can be found in the online help section of the website as well.  I don't use it, but I think it's just as comprehensive.  It just is not as convenient to "thumb" through.

 

Will, 

please note, that Lorraine is not employed or connected to DNN Corp. She creates and maintains the DNN documentation as core team member on her own -  and tries to get some refund for all the time she invests by selling the PDF version.


With respect to that comment  - I think some clarification is required here - as to how the documentation actually ended up getting online.

Lorraine  is still on the core team, originally was part of the company with her husband Phil Beadle - from Nexxus - who sold the business to Byte, and was contracted and paid by Byte Technology who, and was a paid employee with an agreement with Perpetual Motion to get the information online.  You'll notice that the Byte logo used to be on the help area of the dnn site, as part of an agreement to provide the help documentation, for a period of time until the agreement ran out and it was promptly removed.

For a period of time after that, Lorraine was contracted and received commissions on sales of the PDF files that were sold - http://www.dnnguide.com - which as you can see, the site hasn't been updated really since 2007, which was the time the agreement ran out and other arrangements which I'm not 100% sure of were made, but I think it was directly with Shaun - I could stand corrected, but that was my understanding from speaking with the owners of Byte Technology, who, Phil sold the dotnetnuke.com.au domain and business to back in 2004 or 2005 I think, I can't remember the dates specifically.

So, when I read comments like this - I think it's important that people have a good understanding on how the dynamics of how things work and that at times, things are not always what they seem.

I can't understand why their has been such a drag in the documentation process - it's actually diluted the whole information base, and leads to often out of date information sites on other sites, often you have to pay to get the basics that really should be as part of the open source initiative, but I guess they have their reasons and if I hear once more that it's due to 'no contributors' I'll have to disagree as I have tried myself, as have several other people to offer and contribute only to be rejected on the basis that 'we're not looking for your type of service thanks'. 

So this might give you an idea on how the documentation was funded in the first place, and hopefully the same thing will happen - someone will be able to get on the good side of the corp and get some of the documentation online, for the community, not just a professional edition.

I think we'll see a few people drop out of the project and look for other solutions, but that's to be expected - because it's not going to suit everyone's vision and ethics I guess, but lets give it at least a few months to see how this goes. It could bring about some new momentum for developers who are able to sell some premium solutions.

Nina Meiers


Nina Meiers My Little Website
If it's on DNN, I fix, build, deploy, support,skin, host, design, consult, implement, integrate and done since 2003.
Who am I? Just a city chic, having a crack at organic berry farming.. and creating awesome websites.
 
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3/1/2009 7:17 AM
 

On the issue of an online knowledgebase, we actually create and maintain our own public knowledgebase for our customers at:

http://support.powerdnn.com/index.php?_m=knowledgebase&_a=view&parentcategoryid=61&pcid=0&nav=0

I'm sure that DotNetNuke Corporation's knowledgebase will be much more extensive and much more exaustive than our own and will certainly be extremely valuable to the large corporations requiring it, but if you're a small-medium shop and just looking for answers to common issues, we certainly document them in our KB.  Whenever there is a new bug in DotNetNuke it can mean hundreds of new support cases for us so it is always in our best interest to document the problems and the solutions.

The only major downside with our knowlede base is that because we're a hosting provider, all of the information in it is designed specifically arround our hosting environment.  The solutions may work for people on other hosting providers, but there's no guarantee.

 

 

 
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3/1/2009 11:10 AM
 

Nina:
First of all, I am glad that you replied to this thread.  I truly respect your opinions, and mostly because they differ from the typical replies, are well thought out, and well written.  They provide a very good foundation for an ongoing conversation.

Volunteers contributing to any and all areas of an open source project is simply how things get done.  You mention that the documentation was originally written by the way of getting an agreement through funding or advertising.  Both are very viable solutions, but are only useful when the situation and personnel match the project.  I know you look at things from a business perspective, so I will as well.

Delegating someone to write the documentation versus contracting someone to do it provide two very different expectations, from both sides of the agreement.  Those expectations include quality, timeliness, accuracy, availability, and more.  You yourself even eluded to the heightened importance of the documentation.  I would disagree with you for these reasons, but only partially. 

Stepping up to volunteer youself to a DNN project is one thing (and a great thing), but with the way that the DNN projects are currently set up, it also requires time from the Core Team to provide organizational resources to get things running.  I know this is something of an excuse, but there are only a few team members that run the organization of the project teams.  

While I cannot speak to your experience specifically, I can tell you that I have been a member of the Media Module team for several months.  We are looking at reorganizing the team right now, and have been waiting for nearly a month now  to make this happen.  So far, it has been my experience that tme has been the issue, and not the declining of volunteers.

The last thing that I want to mention is that we have to also consider something that I am sure they have considered.  We all realize the enormous weight that is lended by readers of documentation.  A single step being badly worded can cause wide reaching ripples of negative results.  Outdated information is easily explained.  But wrong information is inexcusable.  Therefore, from a business perspective it is better to be extremely selective on who and how the documentation is provided. 

And let's not forget that they have been immersed in the journey of gaining the financial funding during the last year.  One step in that process is to get all legal problems and loop holes tied off.  Since we sign agreements to contribute, gaining new members presents new challenges and longer timelines for the funding goals that they were trying to reach.

I know you know better than many of us the types and content of conversations that might take place among the Core Team members, but when I look at the overall picture, and consider the path that we have been on and the goals that have been publically stated for the future, I am more inclined to believe that they are doing the best that they can with their limited resources.

However, this conversation does bring to mind that they either need more resources, and/or a redesigned process of maintaining the organization of project teams, and site content that allows for quicker turnarounds.


Will Strohl

Upendo Ventures Upendo Ventures
DNN experts since 2003
Official provider of the Hotcakes Commerce Cloud and SLA support
 
New Post
3/1/2009 11:12 AM
 

Nina Meiers wrote

someone will be able to get on the good side of the corp and get some of the documentation online, for the community, not just a professional edition.

I just got fed up with every single user having and maintaining their own documentation site. It's a great start, but personally it really needs to get gathered up under one roof. Most new users who ask a simple question get 4 different members trying to steer them towards their website for tutorials. For someone just starting on the community edition, this isn't the best way to show them the product. I think we really need a single site we can point respond with a simple: '"Read the FAQ, specifically question #4 which relates and explains the exact problem you just encountered"

We need a guide that we can edit, as DotNetNuke matures the documentation needs to change with it. I don't mind DotNetNuke Corporation saving the real KB articles for their paid customers, that's exactly why I posted the wiki. I know a wiki isn't best suited for this, but it works, its stable, it upgrades easier than DotNetNuke, and it's free. Whenever the Corporation posts the "Community Knowlegde Base Version", I'll be happy to move over any articles into the "Official" version. 

I don't mind pdfs, blogs, and searching dotnetnuke forums/blogs with the google "site:dotnetnuke.com" syntax (that's really the only way you can find anything, because of the broken forums search, and the poorly implemented search api in dotnetnuke), I know this is google-fu 101 but you can't expect every single user to know your site is completely broken and you need to rely on google for finding anything.

I wrote this next response a couple days ago, but I held back from posting it because I didn't want to hijack the other thread.

Nina Meiers wrote

... The problem I see here, in general, is the time it takes for the base dnn installs to get fixed ... the down side of using any of the extra dnn modules that are part of the project is they take forever, if ever to get updated - the gallery module - years, literally years before anything has been done and released to the public. ... I've tried in vain to use just dnn modules and found I spent more time reading on the forums why something wouldn't work, and found that once I switched to some of the cool 'third party' solutions, it just worked and I was able to carry on with the work, rather than getting stuck wondering if it was me.. or was there something wrong.


Nina, I completely agree with your points. I do believe, if DotNetNuke Corporation would expose the development branch across the entire suite (core, subprojects, packaging utilities, automated tests, etc), we the community would be able to play a much more active role in the actual development of DotNetNuke and get fixes for these issues. People that want to test against the trunk could do so, and provide feedback, patches. This would of helped fix most of the issues that have shown up with the last two releases. I'm pretty sure this would continue to raise the quality of the product, while also getting rid of some of the fears surrounding the professional edition.

 

 
New Post
3/1/2009 11:16 AM
 

Oliver:
I really like your idea of using a Wiki knowledge-base.  Though it would certainly need to be DNN supported and hosted.  I think that it could very well solve a lot of issues and questions.


Will Strohl

Upendo Ventures Upendo Ventures
DNN experts since 2003
Official provider of the Hotcakes Commerce Cloud and SLA support
 
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