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HomeHomeOur CommunityOur CommunityGeneral Discuss...General Discuss...Will Dot Net Nuke ever follow the standards?Will Dot Net Nuke ever follow the standards?
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4/12/2006 3:18 PM
 

Couple of points:

As crispy mentioned, it's often a case of priorities as well as resources & skills that determine what's in each release. The area of standards and compliance is not a new one for us. <historylesson>In the dnn 1.10x era DNN was ADA-508 compliant thanks to some valuable contributions from a community member. Over time this compliance was lost, primarily as we allowed more flexibility with look and feel via skins (for those who don't know, originally you had to manual edit pages - if you want to laugh/be horrified take a look at http://web.archive.org/web/20031016102236/cathal.europe.webmatrixhosting.net/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=74 which is the cache of an article I wrote in 2003 on customising look & feel), though the increased complexity of the code meant we introduced issues ourselves.</historylesson>

A few times since then, changes have been made to fix issues (e.g. Nina made many of the changes kindly suggested by Anthony in http://forums.asp.net/1031799/ShowPost.aspx#1031799 to the last release), but it's been a while since we've done a portal wide check, as other matters had priority e.g. the changes to membership to make it easier to add alternative providers, enhancing user accounts (particularly the ability to alter user attributes) and a number of other items for the next release have been in great demand for a number of versions, so they were the priority items for this release. I actually raised the issue of compliance a while back, but everyone was committed to other items. With the next release due to go to code-freeze soon it's an area that we're looking at, with a number of coreteamer's such as Nina (and myself) already offering help, so expect to see some movement in this area.

However, IMHO the issue of accessibility compliance is much more important than xhtml compliance. They're often confused (as is css design over design's using tables). My company do a lot of UK government work, for which all our sites must be at least W3C-WAI level A compliant, and in some cases AA compliant, so we deal with the distinctions on a daily basis. For instance it's perfectly possible to make a site that meets compliance (bobby/WAI/ADA) without creating an xhtml compliant site. We usually create sites that meet xhtml transitional status, as creating a site with anything but a fairly trivial look & feel in xhtml strict can often end up with webpages that do not render well on older browsers. Whilst you can code around this a little html/css hacks, these mean your site is a constant moving target e.g. the new release of IE7 breaks many of these common hacks. Also, table's are also perfectly acceptable, though usually only if they are used to present tabular data.

I see us taking a staggered approach, with accesibility compliance being addressed first. The work done there should get us much of the way to the other concerns, xhtml compliance and css-based skins. Whilst some of the changes needed are trivial, other areas need more consideration (note: as usual we will be concentrating on not introducing breaking changes)

Cathal


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4/13/2006 3:31 AM
 

well let me chip in

Not too much is needed to make nice css based sites but there are a few essential things that need to be changed and maybe a few hlper thingies

- we need to be able to determine the doctype per portal ( this will make life a lot easier )

- all tags should be outputted as lowercase, so anythign that is generated by dnn as well as the text html module. Its hould leave the original markup alone and not screw it up by converting to uppercase and removing the ""

- a helper would be a dnn:grid that would render a nicely valid html based table instead of what the datagrid outputs. There is no need not to use tables but its bad practive to use tables for design reasons, yous hsould only use tables for tabular display of data.

- and its not that an invalid xhtml page breaks complete layout youc an have invalid module output in a module but the msot important part is that the original skin should validate so no uppercase all tags nicely closed a good doctype etc. Then some validation errors wont break too much

this is the case for floated div based skins, unfortunately negative margin based skins are a bit more strict on this.

- also we shouldt make allthe extra inputed code too complex. If i have a div with an id and a panel and runat = server I want that div tobe the div that gets the content in it, i dont want it to be a placeholder under where a new div is placed that nots needed and thats extra code that doenst need to be in the page at all.

- dnn label and module header : this could be improved uppon byt not rendering it as span but you will ahve option to tell which tag you want example

<dnn label tag="span"  or tag ="h3" etc   same would also go for the moduletitle , the semantic tag for a title is a H1 2 3 4 etc tag and not a span. So this could be simply added

- core modules : rewrites are needed for certain tables that just generate lists of something like link images faq etc. These should be rendered using nice listed unordered list and then you have much more control in styling it to be horizontal vertical, adding a bit of javascript for the faq list for example.

- idea we have several providers, wouldnt it be a nice idea to intrdoduce a rendersource provider, then we can have speciafic items be rendered as different html code.

- 3rd party modules - If you develop third party modules its a good idea to use repeaters instead of datagrids, this way you and your cleint have full contyrol over the outputted ocde, so you can ahve a list of divs spans or a completely acessible table without too much fuss.

- menuprovider - we need sleeker menus solpart is nice but most newcomers see this as the core version and john did a great job but witha solid navigation provider and menu templates of some sort we could keep the core menu but render all kind of differnet menus without too much hassle. Using css and javascript we can dramatically decrease the javascript code used.

skinning engine: this should mean everything so I want skinobject that i can drop in the head of a page, determine a doctype etc. ( now if you want to have a usercontrol and have it generate code in the header you need to do it in the default.aspx ) and important is also per skin i want to determine which external javascripts it should use. At the moment i have to do this in the newly introduced header tag in dnn admin but what if I ned to do this in a 200 page portal.

A bit off-topic : A lot of the things mentionmed here I will also present in my presenatation at the SDC conference here in the netherlands. So if you are in the neighbourhood drop by. I will be hosting a dnn blackbelt skinning sesson where i will discuss

- use of external javscript libraries in dnn

- special css tricks to extend your skinning

- adding unobtrosive javascript to all nice expand collapse etc effects

+ some other things I have to think about since i will have a whopping 2 hours. Apart from me there will be about 9 sessions from other dnn people

Well back to work now I have a big css dnn news portal i have to finish that will ahve all points mentioned above. Sorry no show and tell ye its stilla  secret so far only NIna has seen it yet.

Armand

 

 

 

 

 
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1/31/2007 9:43 AM
 

Hello dnncreative,

Walking step by step: You said to make the default page xhtml compliant, we have to replace the uppercase keywords with the lower ones & also on the .cs part, create link tags in the lower case.

But still on www.validator.w3.org website, when i checked it for compliant, there it showed 37 errors, i am wondering how will the "<%" tags could be dealt with. Majority of the errors are caused because of this. We have to use this in order to incroporate the server variable values.

I am just into my first dnn website work, dont know much about it, but would like to learn. Do  you know anything to sort this out?

Em wondering the "<Doctype html ..... />" defination is causing this.

Feedback awaited..
Amrit.

 
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2/2/2007 5:31 AM
 
Hello Amrit,

I'm not sure where you are referring to, the best place to go is: http://www.obrienit.se

If you register and login you will see a tutorial created by Tim O'Brien which outlines the steps invloved for XHTML compliance. - Some of it will be a bit different now for DNN 4.4.x but hopefully you should get the idea.

Lee Sykes - DNN Creative Magazine - 600+ Video Tutorials, Articles, Interviews - July Issue 58 out now!
DNN Creative Magazine for DotNetNuke

Twitter: www.twitter.com/DNNCreative

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2/2/2007 8:23 PM
 

While not a complex site http://www.snapsis.com/, which I think is done by a DNN core member, passes W3C's as "xhtml strict".  I not sure what magic was done to get this to pass. It isn't using the blog, event, and forum modules that could be more problematic at becoming standards compliant.

/DaveS


/Dave S
 
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