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HomeHomeOur CommunityOur CommunityGeneral Discuss...General Discuss...All DNN Skins (Outsourcing)All DNN Skins (Outsourcing)
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8/27/2009 11:46 AM
 

Nina Meiers wrote
I also can tell you that there are some people in this world no one can work with, and in my experience it has always been the person who wants to spend the least. Perhaps it's just me but I have had my share of these people and I don't think I'm alone. Nowdays, I simply don't do the low end thankless work and someone said to me - you're not competitive, and the very same day I had people telling me what value they got from me and how much they love me. we fortunately have many more thank ful people than whingers.. go figure, slap in the face with one hand and a pat on the head with the other.. leaves you in state of confusion no matter where you look.

I agree with this. We get so many people that do not understand how long websites or custom web apps take to plan & create. Even after you have create the project you still have to test it thoughfully & then train people how to use it.

Last year I had a paintball comapny (skirmish) request me to go out to his business & help him work out a an online statergy for his business & show him some demos of what we could do. I drove for 1 hour each way to get there, as he told me he wanted a custom website design, custom logo design, some photography, a custom built system for his players to signup to touraments, keep score history, rankings etct.. a forum, photo gallery, video gallery, online bookings (with availabilty checker) & the list went on in the 20 page brief he sent me. I told him over the phone it was going to be quite a big job & asked if he had a budget for us to work with & he said he just wanted everything in his quote.

After discussing it with him for about 4 hours onsite with him I went back to the office & drew him up a very competive detailed quote and emailed it to him. He rang me two weeks later abusing me for trying to rip him off & told me he got another quote from someone else for $500. I wished him luck with that then got of the phone as soon as I could. Twelve months later & he still does not have a website.

With all that said, we are very lucky as most our clients are fantasic people to do business with & we really enjoy working with them ;)

 
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8/28/2009 12:03 PM
 

Adam Kirkbride wrote

I agree with this. We get so many people that do not understand how long websites or custom web apps take to plan & create. Even after you have create the project you still have to test it thoughfully & then train people how to use it.

Yes, there's a very strong misconception that website development is easy, I personally find many people offering up "Well, my nephew can make websites and he's only 15" or "I have made my site in Microsoft Publisher, now I want to have the editing features you had mentioned in your proposal". Then, of course, we have the constant issue of overseas outsourcing. While everyone is entitled to making a Buck, Pound, Rupee, or whatever the customer that uses these services must remember the saying "you get what you pay for" AND "you get what you ask for". So, if you have a very defined set of requirements and are able to communicate it effectively (and often repeatedly) then outsourcing can work... sometimes.

To share a little anecdote of my own:  I had a client come to me recently asking for a quote for us to build out a site with the same functionality of Facebook. They also wanted a live 'proof-of-concept' (my term, not theirs). One of our first questions for any project is "What is your budget?". This one question tells us - Are they serious, do they have a sufficient budget to implement all features, do some features need to be culled or put on a long-term roadmap to accomodate a limited budget, and many other details.  This client in particular hadn't even established a budget for this project, and was farming quotes to take to potential investors. We tried to explain to the client that you just can't jump into a project that size with no budget in mind, and even to produce a 'wire-frame' mockup would not be something offered free of charge as there is significant time involved in even something that simple.  Well, the client didn't take kindly to this, accused us of trying to make a quick buck and overcharging for 'a very simple request'. We made an effort to reconcile the meeting, however I have come to learn that while I may WANT to please everyone it's just not realistic. Last we heard, the client had begun working through RAC and was bragging pretty loudly however I have a feeling he's going to wind up in a very similar situation as the OP.

To the OP - sorry to hear about your experience with ADS.  Unfortunately, even with outsourcing-type pricing I still feel that $300-$400 is nowhere near enough to implement the functionality you describe.


Wells Doty Jr
Online Content Development
 
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9/7/2009 1:58 AM
 


Some people are stuck on the price vs. perception of what we wanted. We didn't want to start a debate on what is a fair price for outsourced work, nor did we want to have to go into extreme detail on what we requested exactly. the only point we tried to make is we felt we communicated clearly what we wanted and they agreed to the project. Once getting into the project, they realized they bid to low and wanted more money. it is difficult to make a valid opinion when the documentation is not available from both parties for you to review. Regardless of the he  said she said, they took our money and left us with nothing! that is unethical and not something we were not going to let stand.

We have used RAC before and felt it is a safer way to do business. It is defiantly not a guaranteed method of finding a great developer, but you won't get stuck holding the bag if the person or company you hire cannot complete your request. I think it would be great if DNN could add a developer review section to their site, for users to add developer profiles and reviews. This would help the community find and share their developer experiences (U.S. and Overseas). We have reviews when we purchase mods and skins, we should have them before we spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on a developer.  RAC does have reviews on their developers, but most of them delve in multiple codes and I would like to see reviews on developers who have worked specifically with Dot Net Nuke. DNN Guru is nice, but I think reviews are vital. The better success we have at putting out quality sites, the faster the DNN name will grow!

 

 
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9/8/2009 3:46 AM
 

This story shows some important insights wrt outsourcing:

  • The rent a coder model does not protect buyer nor seller, because it is not a substitute for trust and cooperation
  • Public bashing is dangerous, it can easily reflect on oneself (so in general it should not be done)
  • It is always about communication: whatever you think you communicated to the other party, is not what the other party has heard, read or understood. Always keep that in mind
  • Be reasonable, be reasonable, be reasonable...

Only through experience we learn...

Peter


Peter Schotman
Cestus Websites voor DotNetNuke oplossingen in Nederland
Contact us for your custom design and skinning work.
 
New Post
9/11/2009 11:44 PM
 

peter schotman wrote

This story shows some important insights wrt outsourcing:

  • The rent a coder model does not protect buyer nor seller, because it is not a substitute for trust and cooperation
  • Public bashing is dangerous, it can easily reflect on oneself (so in general it should not be done)

Only through experience we learn...

Peter

 

·         If all companies worked with trust and cooperation, you wouldn't need RAC. When the trust and cooperation break down, a consumer has no rights when the developer already has their money. RAC just levels the playing field and keeps all parties equal.

·         How can you call sharing your experience public bashing. Have you ever purchased anything online? Just about every major site you visit, you can share your experience or purchase with other users. We spend thousands outsourcing DNN work and there is not a central location to share our experience with that developer.

I think if the DNN site would add a review section for developers, it would cause more of them to work harder at support and customer service. There are module developers that I have stayed away from, because of the feedback from the community. Luckily this is happening on purchases made through the store. There is still an opportunity for improvement, as there is a ton of money being spent on outsourcing services.

This is not to say there is a major issue with support, there are a ton of developers in the community that go way above and beyond to provide excellent service. This would just be an opportunity to give credit where credit is due and warn other developers before they invest in utilizing services of a company.

 
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