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HomeHomeOur CommunityOur CommunityGeneral Discuss...General Discuss...Capacity and Scalability of DNNCapacity and Scalability of DNN
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8/22/2006 7:25 PM
 
Why was my reply deleted?
 
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8/23/2006 11:27 AM
 
Oops, never mind.  The forum module seems to have some quirks with moderation.  I'll post about them in the forums forum.
 
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8/23/2006 1:02 PM
 

egyptegypt wrote

I set up a DNN-based intranet for an association with 35,000+ users and dozens if not hundreds of portals.  I wish I could say DNN scaled well but it simply didn't.  It required extensive customization to get it to a useable state and it's still a work in progress.  Things like the caching architecture and user/role management weren't designed with very large sites in mind.  I also find DNN painfully slow in all but the simplest of setups - this has been my main complaint for the 3 or so years I've been working with this software.  Why they would continue stacking on new features without addressing the scalability and performance problems is beyond me.  It should be priority #1 if they want this to be adopted by larger corporate customers.  Maybe that's not what they want, though, who knows.  So to the original poster, I'd think long and hard about going this route if your organization is large.  Personally, I wish we had gone with SharePoint from the beginning.  I don't mean to offend any developers....I actually do like many things about DNN and the community.  I simply don't think it's well-suited for large deployments at this point.

I've been monitoring this thread, as it's a topic that interest me (and many other coreteam members). Whilst we're aware of lots of installations that have many thousands of users, and hundreds/thousands of portals, we rarely receive feedback from these people, so we're forced to make "best guesses" and use the resources at our disposal such as dotnetnuke.com to determine necessary changes that would help with these installs (note: I am aware of many govt./educational/militaryforture 500 sites as part of my security role, so cannot discuss them due to NDA's)

This area really is composed of 2 parts. The first is general performance (which is an area we're looking at at present so expect some improvements in the next releases) as it has been a while since we looked at it from a holistic portal level. Please note, performance improvements are checked in constantly i.e. the other day a fix for a roles related issue that's existed for a few years was checked in that will boost performance for all sites, but particularly for those with many roles, it's just been a while since it was done end-to-end.

The second part of this area is really the UI, and where it is not suited to large scale deployments. There are many dnn installs which take the framework into areas we neither have the hardware, data (or imagination in some cases - people are using it in very innovative ways) to test, so we rely on feedback from users.

For instance, for a long time there were only a few security roles on dotnetnuke.com, but with the advent of the projects the roles grew substantially, at which time it was obvious to us the UI needed fixed to deal with many roles better - hence role groups. Now, you may argue that this is obvious, but it's only with large samples of data or feedback, that these points are made more apparent. The same applies to users, which is a UI area we've refactored extensively.

Recently, we've also received feedback from users who have so many portals that when logged in as host, the portals screen are virtually unusable. This again is an area we'll look at, but also have to balance against resources e.g. for the small number of people who experience this issue (which for them is a showstopper) against the much larger (probably 99.9% of user have 1-3 portals per install) group for who this effort would not bring a benefit. At the end of the day, we need as much information/feedback as possible, either via the forums or preferably via the public issuelog http://support.dotnetnuke.com/project/Project.aspx?PROJID=23 , so we can determine need and prioritise accordingly.

egyptegypt, I'm don't wish to appear as if I'm picking on you (I only wish to use your comments to illustrate a point), but your comments are typical of ones I've heard many times ("It required extensive customization to get it to a useable state and it's still a work in progress. "), but we get surprisingly little of this feedback/customisation code from the community. Have you any information/code you wish to share, I'm sure we'de be interested in listening (I appreciate that some people make changes that they regard as their intellectual property/unique selling point, and the BSD licence makes this completely fine). In many cases unless people step forward and make their concerns apparent, they won't be addressed - simply put, if we don't know of them, theres little we can do to fix them. Communication is something an open source community is supposed to be better at than closed source , I encourage everyone to try to make it so.

FYI: the performance boost around roles that I mentioned earlier came about as we were helping a user who's site crashed after a particular number of portals loaded. During our investigation, his site crashed after approximately 6000 portals loaded, and after extensive research helped by the community members data/error messages, we tracked it down to the role area. This fix will now allow them to scale to many more thousands of portals, whilst benefiting everyone else.

Cathal


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8/23/2006 1:26 PM
 
Hello there!

I've also been keeping a keen eye on this thread.  Cathal has quite a lot of valid points.  In fact, both sides do.  I believe everybody has close to the same goals in mind - make DotNetNuke a featureful application that can be deployed in a myriad of situations and work for every single one.  Unfortunately, it isn't as easy as simply having a need and then -boom- the need is fulfilled. 


Cathal makes mention to a few issues that have been identified by a lot of shouting on my part :)  At times, things can be very frusterating.  In my mind, DNN can do anything.  Often times I have come to these forums with the expectation that any issues that exist are really the fault of the developers.  That statement is not true at all.  DotNetNuke is a living, growing, and constantly adapting application.  Each participant in the DotNetNuke community has a voice, of which can be used to provide constructive feedback. 

It was mentioned how some people have had to resolve to internal tweaks, fixes here and there, basically bandaids to fix some areas of DotNetNuke that may still need to grow.  I think this is a fantastic way to contribute.  I would caution around keeping those fixes private, due to something I have just come to realize.  Not only do you limit your contribution to DNN as a whole, but if your fixes do not make it to the next build, then you now have a situation of having a vastly increased administrative overheard every time you decide to use a new version of DNN.  You have to retrofit your changes every time.

I have over a dozen DNN sites, one of them has closing in on 8,000 parent portals.  I've modifed the DNN core easily in 100 areas.  So many in fact that I've lost track.  Now I'm in a situation where I need to migrate my DNN to the next version and I find myself sh_t out of luck.  I've modifed the DNN core and database in so many areas that I have next to no way to upgrade.  I recently made the decision to completely scrap all 8,000 parent portals and force all of my users to rebuild and re-register completely.  It was a hard decision to make, but one that unfortunately is required.  If anybody reads this post and is considering modifying a lot of areas in the dnn core and db with regards to stability of DNN, I highly recommend you make your modifications public so it can benefit us all.

To Cathal - If you read my post you'll see that I'm scrapping my gigantic DNN site.  The issues that plague the site are simply too numerous now.  Uptime is seemingly negligable.  I am going to split apart areas that use that 1 DNN install and seperate them into about a dozen more seperate DNN sites.  All current portals will be required to re-register as well as have their users re-register.  This should help distribute the load a bit better.  I also have some more suggestions to make that are critical to large DNN sites that I'll be posting soon enough.

I agree with the OP - DNN has some room to grow in order to support large sites.  In my opinion, constructive feedback and suggestions will be and always have been key, just as Cathal has always stated.

-Tim

 
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8/23/2006 2:00 PM
 
cathal, I would love to see the core team define a target customer for DNN (corporate, small business, personal, web re-seller, whatever) and then focus on making DNN a really good product for that group. As it stands now, there are bits and pieces that are great for certain groups, while other things make using DNN difficult for that group. And because we don't know which group you are primarily aiming to please, it makes it hard to gauge whether it is worth starting out with DNN and waiting for things to improve.

For example, to me, the existence of the AD integration as a core module says that someone in the core wanted DNN to be able to be used for intranet sites. However, it isn't a very robust module, and apparently isn't supported at all right now. But because I have no idea of who the core team is working on DNN for, I don't have any way to guess which features might be focused on in the next release. If I knew DNN was going for the corporate internet market, I would feel pretty confident that the AD module would be supported and extended sometime soon.

Then again, as someone who is thinking about starting a small business with a site based on DNN, I want to know if the features that will be addressed next will be the issues that would affect my business most, which are totally different issues than the problems I see as a corporate user.
 
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