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HomeHomeOur CommunityOur CommunityGeneral Discuss...General Discuss...To Nuke or NOT to Nuke - That is the QuestionTo Nuke or NOT to Nuke - That is the Question
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8/16/2006 11:54 AM
 

I hear your plea... and I've heard it many times before in this community... "I am not an idiot! Why does this tool make me feel like one?"  The answer, as I endlessly state to nobody in particular, is because DNN has no marketing and communications plan, let alone people onhand to implement one. But that won't help you now... so I'll briefly spell out my version of the required competencies for you and anyone else who cares.

Varied degrees of DNN developer skills absolutely required:

  • Install and configure DNN
  • Assess, install and configure additional module functionality
  • Modify either of the above
  • Create and add new functionality

Designer with special DNN developer experience absolutely required:

  • Create and apply a unique site design.

Anyone with a brain, a little training and finished and functional DNN site:

  • Create a page
  • Insert module functionality
  • Edit the content or functionality of those modules

And here's the caveat:
Out of the box, DNN is seemingly everything, but also nothing at all. It is a website, but it is a long long way from your website. The path to that is quite frankly no shorter, no easier and arguably no cheaper for it. The mix of work and skill needed for the production of a DNN-based site is only different from and not less than that required by the use of other methods and systems.

So why bother?...
Everyone has their own goals. Some want to become developers, others want to tinker in web services. The benefit of using DNN in my own work, when compared to similar tools, can be pinned down to the provision of broader membership-managed functionality and the simple but vital ability to upload and insert an image directly into a document on a page. The latter may seem blindingly obvious, but once you start assessing tools at this level, it isn't.

My advice specifically to you Ducki:
Your concerns are on the right track... and to obtain a complete answer, you will need to set out your own goals and specify your requirements in much greater detail. Exactly what is the process you are seeking to improve. How could that be achieved. How will you measure the performance of the change.
It sounds like you have a very specific set of data and related procedures and I would expect there to be a far more specialised tool than DNN ready-made out there somewhere. Also, as you already seem to know, don't get hung up on open source or free software. There is nothing bad, and even much good, in a purchased product if it meets the requirements.

Researching and assessing software is exceedingly laborious and the results of this task are a commodity.

That'll do from me  

  Rob

 

 
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8/16/2006 12:21 PM
 
Ducki wrote  ...the last thing I need is a bunch of regurgitated kiddy praise without any of the downsides.

Well I agree, non-objective fluff won't change any serious mind. 

Ducki wrote  Six months ago....I downloaded DotNetNuke and when it didn't run after installation and configuration, gave up on the product.

So let's cut to the chase:  WHAT WERE THE SPECIFIC PROBLEMS?  In my opinion DNN's two strongest features are the public source code and the helpful community!  If you seriously want to evaluate DNN then there's plenty of people, Core Team & "outsiders" alike who are more than willing to volunteer and get you over the hump...

There's been a significant update released in the last few months.  Download that (no sense discussing old, resolved issues) and the documentation, then give it a try on a fresh database & IIS site.  If you run into problems then just bring us the specifics.

 
New Post
8/16/2006 1:50 PM
 
I'm using DNN as a corporate web application framework (with C#), therefore I'm definitely a much more serious user than most people here, from what I've seen.

I'll just mention the installation part:

>Maybe, I guess I'm used to commercial
>software which just installs without any trouble.

I started with DNN 5 months ago, with ZERO experience with CMS systems before.

DNN DOES install without any trouble. That is, if all the instructions have been followed and the system prepared properly for installation.

Granted, it took me 2 days to install DNN but that was because of my own ignorance.

What issues are you having installing it?

I definitely LOVE the product. It save A LOT of time. It does everyday issues (such as authentication, logging, standard modules) without me having to re-invent the wheel.

One great feature of DNN is skins. It is easy to make a great looking site.

I created an (relatively simple) application for a large bank to use and they love how it looks, and the look and feel took only a couple of hours, most of which was modifying a graphic header in a skin I bought from TFDNN.

We are porting our web apps to DNN as DNN solves many headaches and we can worry about more crucial aspects of our software.

One app with look and feel issues I was able to port to DNN in only 30 minutes, my manager was quite impressed.

DNN is a great tool that should be leveraged, in the right hands, with someone who is eager to learn about DNN and implement it.


chris
 
New Post
8/25/2006 6:26 PM
 

Hi all,

Thanks so much for your comments. I'd like to comment on some of your statements:

> you will not find anything near the value.

At this point in my life, money is less of an issue than headaches. When I was younger and had more time than money, freeware, open source and the like were wonderful. These days I'll gladly pay thousands up front for a solution which costs me less in headaches, downtime and further development later on.

> The extensibility is the #1 reason why anyone from hard core developer
> to casual personal user would want to get involved.

Two thoughts here:
1. Most everything is extensible -- it's just a matter of how much work it takes.
2. I don't want to get "involved" which I'll explain more about in a sec.

> But before I go on, please sell me on why it would make a
> difference to the DotNetNuke project if you were "convinced".

It wouldn't -- I'm a consumer, not a contributor. The only thing I'd bring to the project is bug reports

Nina, thanks for the link to the blog -- your detailed response was awesome (no slight to others intended). I think your comment about not being able to get the program to install on machines is VERY relevant.

> You use a product not because every one is using it or they tell
> you how good or bad it is.  You use it because it suit your
> requirements, budget or somewhere in the middle.

Maybe that's how you make decisions but that's far from how I make them. I own Honda cars specifically because of how good Consumer Reports and other owners tell me how good they are. I choose software and hardware specifically based on reviews and user experiences. Yes, it has to suit my requirements but there are a TON of products/projects out there which will serve 80% of my requirements and budget so now I just have to choose one which won't cost me a fortune in headaches and development later on.

> With your vast experience in the industry, I do think you should
> have the experience to determine whether to Nuke or Not to Nuke.

Hardly. I may have vast experience in the industry but very little experience with each of the software products I'm reviewing. That's why I'm asking the experts.

> So, if you are finally here -  you are not rally
> sure about this simplistic saying.

It's a matter of what you can live with. What I'm not sure of is whether I can live with the unknown issues I'd face if I used DotNetNuke. With a commercial solution, they guarantee their product. With DotNetNuke, nobody guarantees me anything. While the program is free, I'll gladly pay an up front fee to ensure I don't pay over and over again down the road.

Yes, I know there are no real guarantees -- but let's look at this as an analogy. If I buy a Honda car, I know exactly what I'm getting, I have a warranty and I can expect the car to perform exactly like most other Honda's. This is what commercial software is like. Conversely, DotNetNuke is a lot like getting a kit car free. I get all the parts and some instructions but I have to put it together myself and I may invest a lot of time and money only to find the wheels fall off at 50 mph and frankly, nobody cares if I die in the crash.

So why don't I go with commercial software? Simply because I haven't found a solution yet AND DotNetNuke MIGHT be better than all those solutions out there. That's what I'm here to find out and so far, only Rob has really answered that question. We can talk about value all day long but if I die at 50 mph, the money I saved won't be worth anything.

RLyda, I have no clue what the specific problems were. I followed the instructions to install, tried to run a sample page and got an error that made zero sense. At that point I threw in the towel. A month ago a friend of mine who is much more technically savvy than I tried to install DotNetNuke and ran into the same thing and he threw in the towel for the same reasons. Honestly, we both don't have time to futz with a program that you can't even get installed.

Chris -- two days to install DNN? Installers should be better than that! Glad to hear you've figured it out.

Thanks again all!

Ducki

 
New Post
8/25/2006 6:47 PM
 

I started using DNN when it was still called IBSWorkshop that was ages ago now and I can say if you give it a chance it will make things much easier on you than they were with hand coding your site changes or having to re-write the web accordingly. 

I am a C# coder (since day one of .net), so for me it was nice to see a the framework embrace everything about how language transparent .NET is supposed to be.  So you can write your modules for what ever purpose in what ever CLR supported language you want.  So it was natural for me to start writing my own modules in C# and not have to worry about writting them in VB which I know but want to forget (sorry vb/vb.net gurus).

If you follow the instruction set that is provide (in very well written detail) your install should go off with out a hitch.  Among other things that are vastly important was the community support that you will receive if you ask.  If you don't ask then you don't get the help you may need to get your site and services on the web, using this framework.

When I deployed version 1.0 on as a site portal for a former employer, it was tough cause most of our data was on Oracle :( where he kinda wanted all data, so I put sql server on a windows machine put up this system and was able to write modules for use with DNN 1.0 and get modules to import data from oracle, not fun and very time consuming.  The newer versions 3.0+ are far simplier to make this work since you can just write a data provider for Oracle now to do all the work that I put in without changes to the core code of the framework.

Recently upgraded my entire hosted environment to 4.3.4 (yesterday actually) few issues but nothing that stopped the show for very long, some legacy modules had to be removed (not that they didn't work correctly anyway, hold overs from version 3 and .net 1.1), one thing I have noticed with 4.3.4 is that it seems to respond alittle better and produce the request pages faster.

 

Anyway enough of my rambling...

my 2 cents.

 

Morgan Vermef


Morgan Vermef pcasoft.net
 
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