Products

Solutions

Resources

Partners

Community

Blog

About

QA

Ideas Test

New Community Website

Ordinarily, you'd be at the right spot, but we've recently launched a brand new community website... For the community, by the community.

Yay... Take Me to the Community!

Welcome to the DNN Community Forums, your preferred source of online community support for all things related to DNN.
In order to participate you must be a registered DNNizen

HomeHomeOur CommunityOur CommunityGeneral Discuss...General Discuss...Has DNN gotten too big for its own good?Has DNN gotten too big for its own good?
Previous
 
Next
New Post
8/27/2006 7:32 PM
 

I am sure that the board of directors will be reading this post - or someone will have pointed them to it, as they will have pointed them to other posts that come up in the core team forums or chats as part of discussion.

I feel we're going through the same pains as when we grew from DNN 2.1.2 >> DNN 3+ - 3.0.13 - 3.1.1. But we had alot less users and constraints too but I remember feeling like I'd never live through it - it was just terrible at the time till all the problems were sorted out, and 3.1.1 was THE best DNN 3 build in my opinion.

For the last several months, I've advocated on my blogs that DNN isn't as easy as it used to be.  From my perspective, July and part of August has been very challenging in getting DNN running but have managed to get things working pretty well.

But I'd like to give you something to think about here - The catalook store - it's a huge program, and putting aside that it's not the prettiest (I have been working with Susanne on some solutions here in the near future) but here we have a product that is updated, upgraded with the versions of DNN.  And I have deployed several sites with a DNN 4.03, 4.3.3, 4.3.4 versions all being available for people to download.  So, how bad can it be?  The Active Modules Forum - another complex product - works with DNN 4.3.4.    Are there problems - sure there are - but these developers have found answers to provide their customers an updated version - so I find it hard to turn around and blame DNN when I see here are two major developers able to turn out solutions using every build.

Having said that - because I do dnn only - well I mean I'm either building sites for my clients (using DNN) skinning for others (using DNN) or developing my own skins now writing a book (DNN based) the ripple affect of problems rocks my boat to the point of me having to really hang on to the sides sometimes.  I've copped flack for falling behind on delivering some jobs in July - but I swear I couldn't get some menu elements to work so I have had to revert back to other solutions. 

Finally Sunday week ago (15h August) I spent no less than 9 hours working on catching up with deploying some DNN sites on my server.  It was not easy and again, last Thursday night - another 5 hours.  I used to have a couple of master builds but now I have 4 - 5 different builds packaged depending on client requirements and because I'm running 1.1 & 2.0 sites it's not as fast for me to deploy manually. (looking at dotnetpanel at the moment to solve this)  so the whole process is so much more time consuming.  I now have to add and remove several things to get the builds to work as I want them.

Brian,  the Gemini project has been a huge job to sort out - firstly - by allowing anyone to post bugs I think is a big mistake since there were many people who posted things that weren't bugs and they couldn't be replicated, since they were user issues and it seems to me that people are so quick to say something is a bug (mainly newcomers) but I think you can apply for permission to submit bug requests.

Then, there hasn't been a huge volunteer base to work in Q&A - but Shawn Mehaffie has taken this job on with diligence and based on the time allowed in his life, has done a great job, but better news, there are 3 people now on the Q&A team - to the processes are getting put into place to make it flow again.

Steve Fabian has written something for core developers submitting code, so that's been tested and I think ready to use. (again in his own unpaid time)

For me, I've offered help a hundred times but unfortunately - it's not been the sort of help the core team has asked for, so there's not much more that I can do personally, as I also sit and suffer the agonies of builds that go awol. So I do what I can in the forums in the times I can spare.

Things just take time. For me, that's the bottom line - and have learnt patience I have sometimes got to dig deep and find when I see problems that occur, but again it's software, volunteer project, and if it's important to have a solid build, go back to one you know that works well. Even if DNN stopped at this point.. eg.. just disappeared, we still have some great builds to work with, including the source, hundreds of modules (if not thousands) to put forward as solutions to our clients.

And while I'm feeling the pain of this new DNN4, I'm prepared to wear it and wait, because I believe this is the next generation of DNN.  Perhaps we should not be saying 'Has DNN gotten too big for its own good?' but, has the general public asking and 'Is the community expecting too much for their own good?', based on the huge changes we've seen in the code in the last 6 months.

And remember, I might be a core team member, but, have no influence, decision making capabilities or offerings that are able to make an impact, nor do I code, nor get any special or preferential treatment that would give me the ability to get an *edge* over others.  When the dnn community is hurting, when no posts are being responded to, when things look like they're quiet, I can assure you behind the scenes, we're all hurting too and we're all working through the problems as best as we can. 

Just my thoughts on the matter - I have donned my flame proof suit - for those who might not like what I've said since I am not trying to defend the DotNetNuke project - I just wanted to shed some light in this area from someone who sits on both sides of the fence cos my bum gets sore sitting on the fence all the time.

Nina Meiers


Nina Meiers My Little Website
If it's on DNN, I fix, build, deploy, support,skin, host, design, consult, implement, integrate and done since 2003.
Who am I? Just a city chic, having a crack at organic berry farming.. and creating awesome websites.
 
New Post
8/27/2006 7:37 PM
 

ArntK,
Thanks for the heads up.

Most people on the core team know about that blog post, and many others.  Yes, MS gave us something new to learn, and yes, it has it quirks. 

WAP vs. WSP has been debated ad nauseum in the core team forums and during core team chats which is a waste of time in my opinion since you are not tied down to either one when you go to develop your own projects.

The core code was converted to the "new way" after a lot of study, and even some trips made by Shaun (and Charles I think) to Redmond, so don't expect it to get changed back.  Especially considering that Charles has also spent time on a utility to convert the old to the new.

In all actuallity, the core DNN code should be used like a black box by third party module developers anyway.  It's not like you are going to change the core code and deliver it with your module anyway.  My advice if you want a nice development environment is to just create your projects in a seperate solution and only reference the DNN project.


DotNetNuke Modules from Snapsis.com
 
New Post
8/27/2006 7:44 PM
 
Cathal:
Thank you for the answer. I was referring to the way DNN 4 will be packed - when the modules is converted to ASP.NET 2.x. This will not be WAP right? Sorry if I am plain wrong here...
Thanks ArntK

Arnt O. Kvannefoss Software Consult AS Microsoft Certified Partner www.SwcWeb.net www.pamelding.net www.softwareconsult.no
 
New Post
8/28/2006 11:23 AM
 
Let me say that after a day or two to fester on my rant, I must apologize if I offended anyone, it certainly was not my intent.

Secondly, let me also apologize for blaming one of the major issues I was having (resource not found errors in admin and host functions) on the framework.

Turns out, after looking at my skin more closely, that it was actually the skin that was the culprit in this case. The skin has a seperate 1-column, full width layout that I applied to the admin pages. Turns out that I mislabeled the id. It should have been "contentpane" but I misspelled it. Once I corrected it, the skin and the site worked as it should.

Nevertheless, I think the point I am trying to drive home here is that, as mentioned above, DNN 3.1.1 set a bar so high for itself in terms of quality, stability, and packaging that no other release has come close to since. The core team set this bar and spoiled us in the process, we've come to expect nothing less from them. Unfortunately, we've been let down and dissapointed with releases ever since.

I look at Gemini on a regular occassion to see if any of the issues are going to affect me, I know what the core team are dealing with. I certainly feel for them i terms of what needs to be done moving forward.

I think short term, that what I would like to see is proper packaging (a source package that actually works, an install package that actually has all the unneeded files/folders removed, etc.).

Long term, I realize were at the mercy of the actual team working on the issues. Let's hope 4.3.5 clears a bunch of things up. It's all I can really ask for at this point.
 
New Post
8/28/2006 6:12 PM
 
John Mitchell wrote

It's not like you are going to change the core code and deliver it with your module anyway.


Well this is actually what we have to do (kind of). We are running a hosting site on DNN and will need to clear out any bugs that we or our customers discovers. Yes, we will report the bugs we find .

So we need, and want to work with the code - both in the core and the modules. One very important side with DNN is its reputation as an "End to end best practice application". This is unique and makes us willing to also invest time to learn from DNN.

With quotes from the blog Scott Guthrie's refereed to about the default web-site project model: http://west-wind.com/weblog/posts/5601.aspx like:

Quotes starts here
"
The model of ASP.NET 1.1 was simple and elegant and inheritance worked the way you expect it to, whereas the 2.0 model seems too clever and full of workaround hacks and directives to force things to work a certain way. If you are doing cross page/control referencing I bet you have run into these issues and wasted a fair amount of time working trying to find the right combination of directives and inheritance to make it work. It shouldn't be this hard!"

and

"Updating your site in real-time is also a problem because of this model. There are many binary files that need to get updated and while in process the site becomes unstable and results in errors on a live site with the update in progress. ASP.NET 2.0's workaround solution: Use a placeholder file while the update is in progress – Riiiight.

 

I gnashed my teeth and told myself, "I can live with that. After all I don't deploy that often." But after going through these steps with a few minor updates, finding a small bug with the update and then having to go through this process again, let me tell you this process became more than a little annoying and a considerable time sink.

 

Long story short, over time I've gotten very discouraged with stock Web projects for real project work. I still prefer stock projects for samples and simple projects, but for anything critical I've moved on to Web Application Projects"


and last


"I've spent a fair amount of time now both with stock projects and Web Application Projects and I can tell you that I feel much more comfortable and productive with WAP, than with stock projects. Everything just works as you would expect and I've not run into any issues of things that don't work. It's a predictable and proven model that is based on standard .NET principles that anyone who can look at the output generated can understand easily"

Quotes end here


It seems for me like the ASP Community will land on WAP for serious project work. If DNN is on the web-site model will it then loose its reputation as an "End to end best practice application"? And will stability of the core and the productivity of the hole DNN community suffer?



I hate to se this happend, so the community - with the core team in front - must make the right decison.



Thanks ArntK




Arnt O. Kvannefoss Software Consult AS Microsoft Certified Partner www.SwcWeb.net www.pamelding.net www.softwareconsult.no
 
Previous
 
Next
HomeHomeOur CommunityOur CommunityGeneral Discuss...General Discuss...Has DNN gotten too big for its own good?Has DNN gotten too big for its own good?


These Forums are dedicated to discussion of DNN Platform and Evoq Solutions.

For the benefit of the community and to protect the integrity of the ecosystem, please observe the following posting guidelines:

  1. No Advertising. This includes promotion of commercial and non-commercial products or services which are not directly related to DNN.
  2. No vendor trolling / poaching. If someone posts about a vendor issue, allow the vendor or other customers to respond. Any post that looks like trolling / poaching will be removed.
  3. Discussion or promotion of DNN Platform product releases under a different brand name are strictly prohibited.
  4. No Flaming or Trolling.
  5. No Profanity, Racism, or Prejudice.
  6. Site Moderators have the final word on approving / removing a thread or post or comment.
  7. English language posting only, please.
What is Liquid Content?
Find Out
What is Liquid Content?
Find Out
What is Liquid Content?
Find Out