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HomeHomeOur CommunityOur CommunityGeneral Discuss...General Discuss...Has DNN gotten too big for its own good?Has DNN gotten too big for its own good?
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8/27/2006 9:30 AM
 
Here we are in version 4.3.4, and we are no where even close to the stability the Core Team set for itself with the 3.x versions, not even remotely close. The bar was set pretty high in 3.x versions, 4.xx fails to register a blip on the radar screen in terms of quality, stability and performance.

Install package contains lots of garbage not needed for deployment. e.g: "Use the Install Package only if you are already an experienced user, have read the documentation and just want to upload the minimal required files to a live (remote) webserver."

Whats the point of an install package if all you're doing is setting debug=false in the web.config and NOT actually removing unneeded files (xxx.vb files, xx.project files, unneeded folders, etc, etc...?).

Core Team support in the forums has been a lot less than what has been represented in the past. Lets not even get into the problems with this forum itself...

Modules that are written very poorly sneaking into the framework (e.g.: Forums - the code for this module is so poorly written, I am in shock as to why this was included in the first place).

What gives here? The overall impression on the latest versions is, well, less that stellar as we've come to expect.

-Frustrated...
 
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8/27/2006 10:29 AM
 
Kind of curious why DnnBB forums (Dnnbb.net) were not used.  Anders usually writes decent code.  Although the forums do not have all the ability of these forums, for the length of time it has taken to get to this point, things may have been much more stable.  I imagine they were at least looked at back in the day.

I know a lot of a core members probably have more work than they can handle commerically, and I am happy for their sucess, but we all need to have a stable working product that can compete with the other technologies on the horizon.  Even Community Server looks like it is moving to a portal designer framework.

For some time now, I have been waiting to see a few basic features appear such:

  • *** a method to layout modules in a grid within a content pane wtihout having to use third party tools
  • *** ability to backup or move individual portals in case clients mess up their sites or get hacked
  • staging of data (dream time here)
  • low database hunger
  • **** ability to specify database per portal (portal settings still in master but all page and module data in specified database) to all for easy scheduled backups and easy restores
  • RSS feed specific data per module separate from seach data
  • *** Generic database support that is database technology independant (do not care if a light performance hit)
These a are a few things I hoped we may be heading to in the near future, but I do not see any of these even close to be thought of let alone implemented.

Web farming does not make a lot of sense to my pocket book as the database would have to be on a stand alone server and the places I find to host dedicated server charge for bandwidth to and from the SQL server as well as the web servers so I would be paying huge bills on bandwidth just getting data from the database.  When it is hit so many times per page and the abundance of data moving around (unless cached), it does not make a lot of sense to think about farming at this time.

I keep wondering if it is not just better to find a little team of developers and build something based on web parts, create some kind of a skinning engine and generic database routines and start from scratch.  Still would probably be a year away though.

Over there years there have been a lot of developer hours put into DNN and it is a pretty decent product, but technology is moving fast.

 
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8/27/2006 10:31 AM
 

 

Thanks for your feedback Ed.  Your frustration is noted (and shared).

I believe part of the problem is because we are trying to please too many audiences with one set of code. 

And to add to that we are straddling across ASP.Net frameworks, and trying to maintain legacy in an app that is over three years old.

I'm sure we'll see some major improvements soon though.

As for the forums, that is pretty harsh, and although you can say the truth hurts, I think Chris and his team deserve a lot of credit for where they are today compared to where it started when he took over on that project.

Also don't count out the fact that there are many third party components (free and commercial) to DNN that can really alleviate some of the frustration.


DotNetNuke Modules from Snapsis.com
 
New Post
8/27/2006 10:54 AM
 
3rd party components don't replace functionality in the core that is either bug ridden, or doesn't work at all.

Pretty hard to install 3rd party components when the framework itself is suspect in a lot of places.

Try this out, do a fresh install (live or local, no matter). Once it's up and running (if you're lucky), go in and change the passwords for the admin user account and the host user account. Now go in and upload a skin (any skin will do).

Now sit back and watch as:

1.) All of the admin and host menu items cease to work (resource not found errors), ON ALL OF THEM.
2.) Try to edit a module, nothing there to edit.

I've been able to replicate this live and local.

Just an example, one of many the community has been experiencing with 4.3.4 specifically, most of which have fallen on deaf ears.

:(

As far as:

"As for the forums, that is pretty harsh, and although you can say the truth hurts, I think Chris and his team deserve a lot of credit for where they are today compared to where it started when he took over on that project."


If one of my teams/developers turned in code written in the manner the forum sub project is, they would be let go...volunteer or not. Lets not even get into the performance issues or the continuous errors the forums produce here on this domain (I received 2 trying to post this reply).

:(


Bottom line: Stop releasing point releases because right now, 4.3.4 is no better than a beta, and should be marked accordingly as such (or at least a big warning sign: USE AT YOUR OWN RISK, MAY BREAK UNEXPECTEDLY AND OFTEN.

<END RANT>

Trust me, I've been around here since IBS, and through all the releases and growing pains that have come along with them, this release is by far the worst I have ever experienced.

I am usually no brian_c when it comes to DNN, but right now, he'd be getting no arguements from me in regards to the current release.
 
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8/27/2006 11:31 AM
 

I've been using DNN extensively since version 2 and I agree that DNN is in a precarious state right now.  I'm recommending to my clients that --- relatively, in DNN terms --- they should not do a lot of heavy customization right now.  However at the same time, looking at one client in particular as an example, he has just in the past few months picked up the basic admin skills for DNN, and he is so tickled pink with it that he isn't even cognizant of those problems.  He's only doing rather simple things...it's not the perspective of an advanced DNN administrator... but for someone out of the general public, he is savvy.  He's run his web site for over 10 years and even simple tasks in DNN terms represent a level of ease and flexibility which I would describe as a mind-opening experience for him.

In my opinion, the changes introduced earlier this summer are great enough to be considered a paradigm shift.  As such, they are bound to be breaking changes in many regards.  I think they represent a great step forward though, and I think that given more time, the stability you and I and probably most of the advanced users in the community long for will eventually return to the platform.  My guess is that a lot of stability wil return by the end of this year, but that it will be this time next year before we see a version comparable to 2.1.2 in terms of its stability. 

I'm not sure I agree with you about having it marked as beta.  I think that might be feasible if it were a platform with a licensing fee, but with the open source model it relies on use and feedback within and from the community in order to move forward.  Maybe if there were a really large contingent of Platinum benefactors providing that kind of use and feedback, fewer, more stable releases could be provided to the rest of the community.  

In any case, with either approach I think there is a caveat which should always apply, with any other platform, open source or otherwise:  anybody planning a business around it should hire qualified help to assess its practicality for their particular needs.  There's a certain degree of due diligence which is simply one's responsibility as a business owner or manager. 



Shane Miller
Call Centers 24x7
 
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